The Atlantic Article on Lack of Savings

[BLS53]

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Originally Posted by youbet Yes, I am amazed......... But.......... Apparently you desire to keep your source of this info confidential. You say it's publicly available but won't mention where...... Not that I have any doubt, I don't in the least, but could you at least pass along a few hints where the publicly available info came from? One of those Internet services that advertises on late night TV? Something you have access to because of your former gov't employment? Something like the old Dunn and Bradstreet reports? Just curious as to the source of my amazement. Thanks.

Public records have always been accessible. However, in the past, it required a lot of leg work. Now, a Google search will reveal websites that provide this service online for a fee. Anybody can access public information on anyone. Namely; judgments, liens, bankruptcies, divorces, and criminal records.

This isn't a big secret. Nothing one couldn't get by walking in a courthouse. Now just pay a website to deliver it to your computer

[BLS53]

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Originally Posted by RobbieB That's precisely what makes it so juicy. All that dough, the house in the Hamptons, all those liens and judgements, the new book, the fame and fortune... It could be on the front cover on the tabloids at the grocery store checkout sometime soon. If Kim Kardashian hasn't done something more outrageous. Who knows?

This guy doesn't have the celebrity quotient to generate must appeal. There would be a small demographic that would buy the book. Which ironically, is probably the issue with all his books, and a big reason why he can't measure up financially to his lifestyle of choice.

[Milton]

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Originally Posted by Fedup I never buy a Porsche, in my neighborhood, it usually a geezer with white hair driving a Porsche. I think they are hoping to impress somebody.

No doubt that's true in some cases. But perhaps a few such elderly Porsche owners don't care about other people's opinions and simply want to enjoy driving a fun car.

Once you've already achieved FI, I see nothing wrong using surplus $ - of course, always pay cash for 'toys' - on personal indulgences (chattels or experiences). You can't take it with you.

[Lucantes]

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Originally Posted by Milton Once you've already achieved FI, I see nothing wrong using surplus $ - of course, always pay cash for 'toys' - on personal indulgences (chattels or experiences). You can't take it with you.

+1

[Milton]

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Originally Posted by FreeBear Maybe we ER's should give some classes based on real-world experience, although this may be too much w*rk and hassle. "What do you mean I must save and invest 20% or more of my income? Not possible! Can't you just give me some hot tips to beat the market and retire in 15 months..."

Exactly. I have better ways to spend my (hard-won) free time than trying to educate people who typically don't want to learn. In most cases I agree with Larry Winget's perspective: "you're broke because you want to be".

[jimbee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milton No doubt that's true in some cases. But perhaps a few such elderly Porsche owners don't care about other people's opinions and simply want to enjoy driving a fun car. Once you've already achieved FI, I see nothing wrong using surplus $ - of course, always pay cash for 'toys' - on personal indulgences (chattels or experiences). You can't take it with you.

Yep, some people like driving a car that isn't just an appliance.

[kcowan]

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Originally Posted by MichaelB one day when we were in a shopping mall I saw the Porsche in a toy store, so I bought it and gift-wrapped it for her. When I gave it to her I told her it was the fanciest car we were every going to own ... and there is sits on a shelf in the office, amid memorabilia from a past life.

When my boys were teenagers, the youngest asked me what I wanted for my birthday and I told him "a new Porsche". I still have it on a shelf in my den. It is white and the doors, trunk and engine cover all open.

[haha]

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Originally Posted by jimbee Yep, some people like driving a car that isn't just an appliance.

Also, the idea that older Porsche drivers are trying to prove something is perhaps not universal. For example, I have seen plenty of white haired guys climb out of their 911s, and then open the passenger door to a good looking attractively dressed and made-up 35 year old woman.

If there no buyers, there will be no suppliers.

And there is that special 911 engine sound.

Ha

[kcowan]

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Originally Posted by jimbee Yep, some people like driving a car that isn't just an appliance.

Is that a character flaw?

(We avoid certain marques because people will assume we are young and Chinese! Old geezer would be an improvement...)

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by haha Also, the idea that older Porsche drivers are trying to prove something is perhaps not universal. For example, I have seen plenty of white haired guys climb out of their 911s, and then open the passenger door to a good looking attractively dressed and made-up 35 year old woman. If there no buyers, there will be no suppliers. And there is that special 911 engine sound. Ha

I am semi frugal only because I need to be to do some of the extra things I enjoy doing. My "frugality" would dissipate in relation to increased financial means. As long as the 35 year old isn't a financial hazard, I say good for him!

[Milton]

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Originally Posted by haha And there is that special 911 engine sound.

Accompanied by the famous S.T. Dupont lighter 'ping', as the Porsche owner lights up a Cohiba.

[Markola]

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Originally Posted by FreeBear Glad to see some young folks avoiding the cultural corporate coolaid and saving and investing in their own futures. It's discouraging, in the real world outside ER.org, MM, and the like to see that such folks are scarce as unicorns. On the other hand, someone has to pay the SS and Medicare for us ER's...

+1. It's not only discouraging but painful, surprising and awkward to grow older (I'm 50) and witness a sort of reckoning happening with nearly everyone around us, whether older people (never saved and now their only real assets are home equity and SS); peer (often living well but paycheck to paycheck and about to fall behind as bright kids select private universities); younger (spending everything, even cashing out IRAs for consumption).

Basically, I see people I care about and who are often massively talented making choices that will require them to work until they drop, which is a painful aspect of becoming relatively wealthy that none of my studying toward FIRE prepared me for. I've wanted to be wealthy enough not to work my whole life and DW and I have spent our whole careers learning about it, delaying gratification, and taking action to achieve it. That's usually what it takes and hardly anyone else in my real life is oriented that way. We are Unicorns, indeed, even Oddballs, it seems, and lately I constantly have to control and stifle my internal dismay and unpleasant judgment. Serenity Prayer time, I guess.

[ChiliPepr]

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Originally Posted by nash031 The guy wrote a "woe is me because of the system" story, when the reality is it should've been a "woe is me because I'm a financial disaster".

Nope, he wrote a "Woe is me" article because someone would pay for it...

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Originally Posted by petershk Why the hell don't they teach "basic financial common sense" at school.

Look at the number of people who cannot do basic math after high school...

[jimbee]

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Originally Posted by kcowan Is that a character flaw?

No, it's a preference.

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Originally Posted by kcowan (We avoid certain marques because people will assume we are young and Chinese! Old geezer would be an improvement...)

I buy the marques I prefer, I don't know why I should care what other people think of my car.

[Fedup]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha Also, the idea that older Porsche drivers are trying to prove something is perhaps not universal. For example, I have seen plenty of white haired guys climb out of their 911s, and then open the passenger door to a good looking attractively dressed and made-up 35 year old woman. If there no buyers, there will be no suppliers. And there is that special 911 engine sound. Ha

That's what they are hoping for. I never saw the young babe with the old geezer. Not around here. In my neighborhood, the Chinese foreign buyers are the one with very expensive cars, I think some of them are even more high end cars than Porsche.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[Danmar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milton No doubt that's true in some cases. But perhaps a few such elderly Porsche owners don't care about other people's opinions and simply want to enjoy driving a fun car. Once you've already achieved FI, I see nothing wrong using surplus $ - of course, always pay cash for 'toys' - on personal indulgences (chattels or experiences). You can't take it with you.

Absolutely. I am a young looking 65 but my hair is almost pure white. Old geezer? Who knows. But I enjoy driving and can afford expensive sporty cars and have several and always pay cash for everything. I am not trying to impress anyone. Just like to drive fast. Not sure why people are so judgemental re what other people buy. Some people can actually afford their toys but if it makes others feel better to assume they are in debt up to their ears, I guess they will. I certainly wouldn't presume to offer advice about what others should do with their money, as long as they don't overspend and even then. Oh, I often have such a babe get out of the passenger side but she is my very good looking spouse.

[Milton]

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Originally Posted by Fedup In my neighborhood, the Chinese foreign buyers are the one with very expensive cars, I think some of them are even more high end cars than Porsche.

Same story in Canada.

[FreeBear]

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Originally Posted by Markola +1. It's not only discouraging but painful, surprising and awkward to grow older (I'm 50) and witness a sort of reckoning happening with nearly everyone around us, whether older people (never saved and now their only real assets are home equity and SS); peer (often living well but paycheck to paycheck and about to fall behind as bright kids select private universities); younger (spending everything, even cashing out IRAs for consumption). Basically, I see people I care about and who are often massively talented making choices that will require them to work until they drop, which is a painful aspect of becoming relatively wealthy that none of my studying toward FIRE prepared me for. I've wanted to be wealthy enough not to work my whole life and DW and I have spent our whole careers learning about it, delaying gratification, and taking action to achieve it. That's usually what it takes and hardly anyone else in my real life is oriented that way. We are Unicorns, indeed, even Oddballs, it seems, and lately I constantly have to control and stifle my internal dismay and unpleasant judgment. Serenity Prayer time, I guess.

Thanks Markola, this reflects a big source of my sadness and frustration. Maybe this is not true for the working poor, but it is seems true for most of our close middle class friends. It's painful to behold in large part because these issues could have and should have been avoidable by simple LBYM, at least for our friends who worked hard and earned at least average wages for decades.

I've turned this issue over in my mind somewhat and tentatively conclude that this middle class financial "crisis" is more of an emotional/psychological/spiritual (depending on inclination) problem than an absolute lack of earning power. I see it as emotional emptiness/immaturity/greediness, again depending on one's perspective. I'm learning, still learning, that perhaps all I can do is continue to spend quality time with these friends and take the money issue off the table, except when asked. I have much more time for quality relationships in FIRE, but patience is a challenge. As you've found, this is easier said than done...

On the other hand, I have grown more charitable regarding real poverty, as defined by the absolute, not just relative, lack of food, water, health care, education, and even simple sanitation (toilets) around the globe, esp. throughout much of the 3rd world. One of our goals in ER is increased support of grass roots (often church based) initiatives to resolve these issues on a local level. As suggested throughout this thread, the big challenge is determining what can and should be changed. So FIRE has kept us busy so far

[kcowan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danmar Oh, I often have such a babe get out of the passenger side but she is my very good looking spouse.

This is a thread about things! Leave DW out of it!

(See you in the photography thread...)

[kcowan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeBear One of our goals in ER is increased support of grass roots (often church based) initiatives to resolve these issues on a local level. As suggested throughout this thread, the big challenge is determining what can and should be changed. So FIRE has kept us busy so far

During our time yearly in Mexico, we find that the working poor are very proud. They do not want charity. It takes a fair amount of finesse to give them more than they request.