The Atlantic Article on Lack of Savings

[Keim]

one last thing. The property in East Hampton with the $650K mortgage is showing a Zillow value of $2.65 MILLION DOLLARS. What am I missing here?!

Seems the author has an easy out of his financial pickle...

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

@Flyboy. I don't think we really disagree to the extent you think. I have little sympathy with the author. My point is really, I don't care very much. There will always be winners and losers in life. My goal in life is always to be one of the winners. Problem is our society seems to be encouraging a loser's stategy. I guess the more losers there are the easier if is to be a winner? The only problem I see is that the losers might overrun the the rest of us.

Gotcha! Sometimes it's hard to read with the lack of facial expressions and other non-verbal clues to "even out" what's being said.

He has $2M equity in his house? Could there be others loans on the house than the mortgage you are seeing?

Couldn't really tell you without digging deeper. I have access to a database that compiles public data and often mortgage releases will not be reflected. It is possible (I would guess probable) that he has multiple mortgages on the property. Also, Zillow is just an estimate and they also indicate that R/E in that area is "COLD" (I didn't know that R/E was COLD, anywhere right now!) so I would look at those figures with a wary eye. As for the all the judgments and liens...well, that tells a much more complete story (IMHO).

I happened to email this information to the writer of the article on Slate (Helaine Olen) and she seems very interested in gathering more information on this and perhaps addressing this in another article. She was quite surprised that Atlantic would publish the article if they knew of his "true financial picture."

I would pontificate that it's because of clickthroughs. I think that editors will look the other way and ignore facts if they can get away with it. Just another example of how journalism is just very journalistic anymore.

 

[Fedup]

I finally was able to read this article on another forum. The grandparents paid for his kid's college tuition. I agree he is in a whiny and manipulative.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[haha]

Oh yeah...a few tidbits about the author (from public records):

2012 Judgment for AMEX Balance: $36,442
2012 Judgment for CITI NA Balance: $14,066
2012 Lien NY Taxes Balance: $2,812
2010 Lien US IRS Balance: $15,431
2010 Lien US IRS Balance: $60,968
2010 Lien NY Taxes Balance: $10,170
2008 Lien NY Taxes Balance: $12,790
2006 Judgment Penguin Group Balance: $189,919
2005 Lien US IRS Balance: $51,110

OK...I am tired of transcribing this information, but it keeps going and it goes back to 1993.

Very nice! How do you find this kind of information?

Ha

 

[dixonge]

My thoughts:

1 - While I am unable to sympathize with the author's plight, many of the statistics he shared really do apply to a lot of the middle class. Unlike most of them, the author actually had a choice. He mostly chose badly.

2 - FlyBoy5 isn't the only one who isn't buying this guy's sob story. This article sees him as just another in a long line of sad white literary guy tales...

Neal Gabler’s Atlantic essay is part of an old, aggravating genre: The sad, broke, literary male.

3 - Gabler tried to make it sound like he wasn't rich because they live in the Hamptons year-round, unlike the rich people who just rent there for the summer. A nice try, unfortunately that's exactly what the Gablers did! They rented summer houses there for years and then bought the house they were renting for $600-700,000 or so. The tax rolls show a current assessed value of almost $1.5M

http://ehamptonny.gov/DocumentsPDF/Assessors/2015/2015FinalAssmtRoll.pdf

Neal Gabler: The Triumph Of Entertainment | The East Hampton Star

OK, I spent *way* more time on that than is justified...

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Very nice! How do you find this kind of information?

Ha

I have access to a database that compiles public record information. You'd be amazed at what is publicly available. It's really quite scary.

Oh yes, and the Penguin Group judgment...I assume that's the advance he had to pay back. I would guess that since Penguin Group is a publisher. I am not sure what the advance was, but it seems like it was a decent amount (judgment most likely had court/atty/interest added in, so no real way to know what the actual advance was without pulling records from the judgment/court).

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I happened to email this information to the writer of the article on Slate (Helaine Olen) and she seems very interested in gathering more information on this and perhaps addressing this in another article. She was quite surprised that Atlantic would publish the article if they knew of his "true financial picture."

I would pontificate that it's because of clickthroughs. I think that editors will look the other way and ignore facts if they can get away with it. Just another example of how journalism is just very journalistic anymore.

Good for you. I don't think living in a $2.65M house and statements like "We have learned to live a no-frills existence" are compatible. Not to mention the term "middle class" being used in the article title. The median home price in the U.S. is not much over $200K.

 

[marko]

So after dozens of people contributing to 157 posts (158 counting this one) we find that this guy is just a joker?

Well, I'll say one thing: he sucked us in! So he must be a pretty good writer.

 

[sanfanciscotreat]

Do you seriously think that teachers are in the same intelligence range as garbage collectors and custodians? And that farmers are stupid? You must have never know people in either profession.

Most farmers I have known are not stupid; and many know how to keep their income subject to taxation low through cash transactionsl

 

[Mulligan]

Thanks Flyboy I had no idea...
I have been blessed I've always been able to pay my bills; not saving for retirement is one thing but getting into Credit Card Hoc and dancing with IRS... This author is clearly a spend thrift and a blow hard ...

when you don't pay Your taxes you steal from all of us.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

The writer seems like a reasonably intelligent man. So therefore I blame his problem on the government. If they had not rescinded our debtors prison laws, I bet he would have been a bit more restrained in his spending. But I may be the oddball, I have always worried more about pain than pleasure, so that is why paddlings were effective on me as a child to conform to societal standards as set by my parents.

 

[sanfanciscotreat]

And also, I believe in delayed gratification; thankfully, the delay is now over

 

[GravitySucks]

Thanks to FlyBoy and the folks that dug a bit deeper on this guy. I'm adding him right in with Barbara Ehnright and Morgan Spurlock as the Middle Class pretender authors. What ever happened to writers like Studs Terkel?

So he borrows money from his parents and his children and thinks he has a financial problem? I'd look more at an overall moral problem.

Unfortunately, this article popped up in my Facebook feed at least 10 times from friends liking it. I'll bet Gabler is spending more on his Property and School taxes as half of the people clicking like make in a year.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

So he borrows money from his parents and his children and thinks he has a financial problem? I'd look more at an overall moral problem.

From the list of bad debts coupled with extravagant expenses, I would agree it appears to be more of a moral issue than a budgeting issue. I have friends with budgeting issues who may max out their credit cards over discretionary expenses, but they aren't shirking their obligations as taxpayers, stiffing employers or draining their parents' life savings.

 

[Independent]

"In a 2010 report titled “Middle Class in America,” the U.S. Commerce Department defined that class less by its position on the economic scale than by its aspirations: homeownership, a car for each adult, health security, a college education for each child, retirement security, and a family vacation each year. By that standard, my wife and I do not live anywhere near a middle-class life, even though I earn what would generally be considered a middle-class income or better. A 2014 analysis by USA Today concluded that the American dream, defined by factors that generally corresponded to the Commerce Department’s middle-class benchmarks, would require an income of just more than $130,000 a year for an average family of four. Median family income in 2014 was roughly half that."

In short, much of the "middle class" aspires to a life that is twice as expensive as they can afford without going into massive debt.

I'd say that the USA Today article says more about the biases of a writer trying to get a good headline than it says about average Americans.
Price tag for the American dream: $130K a year

Of course, the "dream" for anyone is likely to be more than they can afford today, that's why we call it a "dream". But, each writer gets to define his own dream.

One problem with the article is that the "median family" is not a "family of four". In 2014, the married couples with children at home had a median income of $85,000. Income Inequality: Married Couples With Kids Make Average of $107,054

The referenced Commerce Dept paper said that a median family of four with a $80,600 income (2008) could cover all those expenses, if they lived in a house valued at $231,000. "Middle Class in America" Task Force Report (PDF) | Department of Commerce

$130,000 vs. $80,600 is pretty big, even allowing for 6 years of inflation.

The big differences are taxes, retirement savings, and "other". The last category includes $4,000 of education expenses for the kids (not including college), and generally numbers that are more than median income couples really spend.

But, the Commerce paper does some low on certain expenses, too.

 

[Matthew J]

Oh yeah...a few tidbits about the author (from public records):

2012 Judgment for AMEX Balance: $36,442
2012 Judgment for CITI NA Balance: $14,066
2012 Lien NY Taxes Balance: $2,812
2010 Lien US IRS Balance: $15,431
2010 Lien US IRS Balance: $60,968
2010 Lien NY Taxes Balance: $10,170
2008 Lien NY Taxes Balance: $12,790
2006 Judgment Penguin Group Balance: $189,919
2005 Lien US IRS Balance: $51,110

OK...I am tired of transcribing this information, but it keeps going and it goes back to 1993.

I always wondered if people like this actually beat the system in their own way. I mean this guy got hundreds of thousands of dollars more in goods and services then he ever bothered to pay for, and in the end he can just declare bankruptcy and move on to do it again. His retirement will be a series of social programs and SS, and probably some under the table money from his children. In other words, this guy will have lived well beyond his means, and despite some ups and downs, vary well may have lived a better life (personally and materialistically) than those of us who sacrificed and paid our own way. He may actually have 'beat' us!

 

[Milton]

[T]his guy will have lived well beyond his means, and despite some ups and downs, vary well may have lived a better life (personally and materialistically) than those of us who sacrificed and paid our own way.

Not morally, though.

I happened to email this information to the writer of the article on Slate (Helaine Olen) and she seems very interested in gathering more information on this and perhaps addressing this in another article. She was quite surprised that Atlantic would publish the article if they knew of his "true financial picture."

Good work.

 

[youbet]

I have access to a database that compiles public record information. You'd be amazed at what is publicly available. It's really quite scary.
.

Yes, I am amazed......... But..........

Apparently you desire to keep your source of this info confidential. You say it's publicly available but won't mention where......

Not that I have any doubt, I don't in the least, but could you at least pass along a few hints where the publicly available info came from? One of those Internet services that advertises on late night TV? Something you have access to because of your former gov't employment? Something like the old Dunn and Bradstreet reports?

Just curious as to the source of my amazement. Thanks.

 

[RobbieB]

I have no problem with the article, he's not lying, he really is broke.

Also fairly well celebrated;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Gabler

He seems a pretty smart guy, just not financially eh? Yeah lived beyond his means no doubt. But since the government filed the liens, we will get our dough eventually I'm sure.

 

[nash031]

I have no problem with the article, he's not lying, he really is broke.

Also fairly well celebrated;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Gabler

He seems a pretty smart guy, just not financially eh? Yeah lived beyond his means no doubt. But since the government filed the liens, we will get our dough eventually I'm sure.

Step 1: Create Wikipedia account
Step 2: Post public lien information to Gabler's Wikipedia page, citing source.
Step 3: Win.

 

[RobbieB]

I have no idea what you mean.

The info on wiki is bogus?
He didn't write the 5 books he said he did?
Win what?

 

[Keim]

I have no idea what you mean.

The info on wiki is bogus?
He didn't write the 5 books he said he did?
Win what?

I'm guessing winning is making him look bad by posting his info on Wikipedia.

 

[RobbieB]

The guy is a writer and he writes. He said he's broke and it appears that he is. He admits that he looks bad and feels bad.

Who knows the details of the book deal that went bad. Who cares?

Guys like that in the "entertainment industry" burn bright, flash bang and burn out fast all the time. Hey just one more "best seller" or "block buster" and I'm in the green again eh?

Those guys really do live in a different world.


This is a guy that should have hired a financial advisor for one percent and just sent him all the dough -

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Yes, I am amazed......... But..........

Apparently you desire to keep your source of this info confidential. You say it's publicly available but won't mention where......

Not that I have any doubt, I don't in the least, but could you at least pass along a few hints where the publicly available info came from? One of those Internet services that advertises on late night TV? Something you have access to because of your former gov't employment? Something like the old Dunn and Bradstreet reports?

Just curious as to the source of my amazement. Thanks.

I will not confirm that the source is this one I used, but it's probably something close. I'm sure you could find it all at the Suffolk County Clerks office though.

Just want to make sure that people know that the information came from a reputable source.

http://www.lexisnexis.com/en-us/products/public-records.page



Sent via mobile device. Please excuse any grammatical errors.

 

[anethum]

Gabler was interviewed last Sunday on National Public Radio's Weekend Edition about his Atlantic article. Here's a link to it. You can click on a link on the upper left corner to listen to the audio of the 5 minute interview, or you can read a transcript of much of the interview lower down on the page. During the last 45 seconds of the radio interview, he makes the following assertion which was not part of his article:

"If you look at the English or the French or the Germans, they don't believe that they're totally responsible for not having achieved financial success. Americans do. And we've got to stop people telling us that it's all in our hands as to whether we're going to be successful, because frankly it is not."

Could You Come Up With $400 If Disaster Struck? Half Of Americans Couldn't : NPR

Also, Gabler had a new book published today, titled Barbra Streisand: Redefining Beauty, Femininity, and Power.
http://www.amazon.com/Barbra-Streis...F8&qid=1461722443&sr=1-1&keywords=neal+gabler

 

[RobbieB]

Good for him, he needs the dough -