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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-11-2005, 11:43 PM   #121
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

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Originally Posted by amt
If they stopped you, I don't think they would have arrested you had you got the wrong VAT rate. *They would have most likely prosecuted the store.
They told me they would have made me pay a fine for either not paying the correct VAT or an even higher fine for not being able to produce the receipt for my purchases. I believe this goes on your record and if it happens enough times there may be jail time for you.

I'd rather stick with filing a 1040 form once a year than have to worry about each receipt I get with every purchase thoughout the year.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-11-2005, 11:47 PM   #122
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha

We significant income taxes last year and were in the highest bracket. I don't have a problem with that. It doesn't seem unfair to me. We were fortunate to be in that position.
Well said!! I wish more people had this attitude.

I am suspicious of anything that has to call itself "fair." That immediately implies to me that it is not. Say something often enough, no matter how untrue, and people start to believe it.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-11-2005, 11:51 PM   #123
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amt
Here's a copy of the letter signed by many university professors and respected economists pleading the politicians, in favor of the fair tax.

http://fairtax.org/pdfs/Open_Letter_President.pdf

Here's a portion of it:

The America proposed by the FairTax Plan would feature:
no federal income taxes,
no payroll taxes,
no self-employment taxes,
no capital gains taxes,
no gift or estate taxes,
no alternative minimum taxes,
no corporate taxes,
no payroll withholding,
no taxes on Social Security benefits or pension benefits,
no personal tax forms,
no personal or business income tax record keeping, and
no personal income tax filing whatsoever.
No Internal Revenue Service; no April 15th; all gone, forever.
Is all that fluff done to impress the uninformed?

Payroll taxes and self-employment taxes are the same thing, so that's a duplicate.

Federal income tax and payroll withholding are the same thing, so that's a duplicate.

Tax on social security/pension and federal income tax are the same thing, so that's a duplicate.

The "income tax" recordkeeping will be replaced with "sales tax" recordkeeping, so that's a non-issue.

Come on, no IRS? *Are you for real?
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-11-2005, 11:58 PM   #124
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha

We significant* income taxes last year and were in the highest bracket.* I don't have a problem with that.* It doesn't seem unfair to me.* We were fortunate to be in that position.
Spoken like a true liberal. I'll bet you think the government spent your
money wisely and carefully I know you know they wasted most of it.
And that doesn't bother you?

JG
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-11-2005, 11:58 PM   #125
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco

I am suspicious of anything that has to call itself "fair."* That immediately implies to me that it is not.* Say something often enough, no matter how untrue, and people start to believe it.
I challenge all of the opponents of the proposed "Fair Tax" to read every word of the following letter, which I already linked above, but will do it again for your convenience. *

http://fairtax.org/pdfs/Open_Letter_President.pdf

It's only 2 1/2 pages. *After that if you're skeptical, please explore www.fairtax.org and you'll get your answers most of the time. *If you are still opposed to it after that, I will say, it's our luck and the majority rules in a democracy. *But I believe the majority of Americans, after they carefully study the proposal, will support it.

Respectfully
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:02 AM   #126
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
Well said!!* I wish more people had this attitude.

I am suspicious of anything that has to call itself "fair."* That immediately implies to me that it is not.* Say something often enough, no matter how untrue, and people start to believe it.
This is a dumb topic.
This is a dumb topic.
This is a dumb topic.
This is a dumb topic.
This is a dumb topic.
This is a dumb topic.
This is a dumb topic.
This is a dumb topic.
This is a dumb topic.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:07 AM   #127
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by retire@40
They already have such a "hotline" under the current system.
Yeah, and if that's not Orwellian I don't know what is.

JG
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:11 AM   #128
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amt
Actually, I want to fire many of those.* The businesses that the govt have to audit will be much lower in number.* In 2003, the IRS had 143 Million returns (130 individual returns, plus others were corporate, partnership, trusts, etc) http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smar...nsRebuttal.pdf page 9

With fairtax, all you need to worry about will be businesses.* Surely, out of* 130 M individual returns in 2003, some may be businesses (sole proprietorship, etc), but I don't think it will be a large percentage.* Most trusts will cease to exist; there's no purpose for them.* So, conservatively my estimate is that there would only be about 15-20 million tax paying/forwarding entities you'll need to worry about.* If you fire 50% of IRS auditors, your audit rate will still be about 3%, about 4 times 0.77%.*

Plus, sales tax will be pretty hard, if not harder than income tax, to cheat.* Let's say you run a barber shop,* you can't cheat your sales volume, IRS (then may be called fairtax enforcer) can just look at the parking lot camera and count your customers.* If you're a chiropractor, you have all those insurance claims that will keep you in check.* How about Mr. Handyman who takes cash to fix your toilet?* I'll say there's no difference.* If he wants to cheat now, he doesn't report that cash income.* If he wants to cheat under fairtax, he either doesn't collect it or doesn't report it.* No difference.*

The govt can even discourage sales tax cheat by having a hotline that if you think someone is not reporting sales tax, you can be the whistleblower and can have a piece of that extra collection pie.* It would not be easy to cheat, at least not easier than the current convoluted system where honest citizens or even IRS folks don't know what is cheating and what's not.
amt, you may be the most naive person I've ever encountered and that's
saying something.

JG
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:12 AM   #129
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by retire@40
Is all that fluff done to impress the uninformed?

Payroll taxes and unemployment taxes are the same thing, so that's a duplicate.

Federal income tax and payroll withholding are the same thing, so that's a duplicate.

Tax on social security/pension and federal income tax are the same thing, so that's a duplicate.

The "income tax" recordkeeping will be replaced with "sales tax" recordkeeping, so that's a non-issue.

Come on, no IRS? *Are you for real?
Now, don't be too picky; it's directed to our President; *does he know those differences?

If you say payroll taxes and unemployment taxes are the same, *I'll pick the unemployment taxes only and pass on payroll taxes for my business. *Can I do that??

Ditto for federal income tax and payroll witholding. *Can I skip payroll witholding?? I know I can save a bundle in accountant fees if so.

SS tax and income tax are the same?? *Then why do people complain about having to pay income tax on SS? *I understand your point, but there's also a reason for people being touchy when their SS income is taxed. *Don't you think?

Do you honestly believe that income tax record keeping and sales tax record keeping will be the same. *If so, I'm 100% with you.

No IRS, for real? *Betcha. *It can be so much smaller that you won't recognize it.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:13 AM   #130
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
amt, you may be the most naive person I've ever encountered and that's
saying something.

JG
Would you care to elaborate?
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:28 AM   #131
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gindie
As the starter of this thread (and a hope-to-be ER in 9 years), I can see the questioning of the plan by retired folks.* However, for us still in the work force, I think it would be a good deal.

Just another little bit of information...The book is debuting #1 on the New York Times Non-Fiction Bestseller list to be published on August 21.
Well, it's going right on my "must read" list.

JG
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:33 AM   #132
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amt
If you say payroll taxes and unemployment taxes are the same, *I'll pick the unemployment taxes only and pass on payroll taxes for my business. *Can I do that??
I copied incorrectly from your list, I meant self-employment tax, and that is the same as payroll tax.

Quote:
Ditto for federal income tax and payroll witholding. *Can I skip payroll witholding?? I know I can save a bundle in accountant fees if so.
It's the same tax. *It's federal tax withheld from your pay to help you budget your federal tax payment.

Quote:
SS tax and income tax are the same?? *Then why do people complain about having to pay income tax on SS? *I understand your point, but there's also a reason for people being touchy when their SS income is taxed. *Don't you think?
Go back and read what I wrote. *I never said SS tax and income tax are the same. *I said the tax on SS/pension and federal income tax are the same.

Quote:
Do you honestly believe that income tax record keeping and sales tax record keeping will be the same. *If so, I'm 100% with you.
Yes.

Quote:
No IRS, for real? *Betcha. *It can be so much smaller that you won't recognize it.
Maybe in a dream, but not in real life. *Go back and read my Europe VAT post.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:43 AM   #133
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amt
Would you care to elaborate?
Are you kidding? Unless you are jerking us around, you seem to believe that the IRS/tax collection system can be totally overhauled, and that
people will climb on that bandwagon, and most incredibly, that
somehow this will make things better and more efficient, maybe even
a smaller more streamlined government apparatus. I would guess
you also believe in the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny.

JG
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:48 AM   #134
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

I was going to offer to set up a web site for critics of the "fairtax" to build so can avoid supporting arguments and say "read the site and then try to disagree". But it occurred to me this has probably already been done:

http://www.brookings.org/comm/policybriefs/pb31.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/cox4.html
http://www.mises.org/story/1814
http://www.lafayettesbest.com/category/summary.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b5b25282ac4.htm
http://www.gigo-soapbox.org/gigo/2002/06/18.shtml
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1303381/posts ( for and against arguments )

(I haven't read all these; just copied links and scanned them quickly.)

Now we can let the websites battle it out.

I just thought of something...it's difficult or impractical to buy used school supplies and used clothing for growing kids. Parents of children will be hit the hardest with the "fair" tax system.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 06:40 AM   #135
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Hi retire@40,

I think you need to relax with all this. Theres a fairtax nut gentleman a few blocks from here. He's got a nice red, white and blue sign on his lawn that points to the fairtax website. We all pass by on our daily walks, jogs, pooping the dogs,etc. If he is outside he gets a nod, maybe a neighborly wave, but thats it. That all he gets because everybody knows the guy's addicted to a pipe dream. A fantasy. Kinda like that guy on the other thread who dropped dead from playing too much Pong or whatever it was.



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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 11:03 AM   #136
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

JG, every now and then the American people get riled up enough
about something to do the "impossible". Think Prohibition and
subsequent repeal. Think woman suffrage. Think emancipation.
Think "man on the moon". etc, etc, etc.

If you are a libertarian, or at least a follower of the Rand Cult, one
would think you would be interested in the "fair tax" idea, at
least as an intellectual exercise.

Yes, the whole idea is probably doomed to failure because of
cynics like you and the vast majority of others who are
spoon fed their "opinions" by special interest groups.

But, IMO, it is not good enough to reject a radical idea out of hand
just because it seems impossible or conflicts with your personal
biases.

I think this idea deserves careful, thoughtful analysis. Like I said
before, I am still in the information soak mode ...... leaning
toward acceptance, but still have reservations about
already taxed savings, how much prices will really drop, etc.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: The FairTax fantasy
Old 08-12-2005, 11:05 AM   #137
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Re: The FairTax fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
I just thought of something...it's difficult or impractical to buy used school supplies and used clothing for growing kids. Parents of children will be hit the hardest with the "fair" tax system.
Totally disagree-- our kid's fantasy is to live between Office Max & Staples so we spend a lot of our time watching for used school supplies. *(She's accumulated over 200 different wooden pencils, just in time to make the leap to mechanical pencils.) *

Try Goodwill or just about any summer garage sale. *We've even found paper towels still sealed in plasticwrap & unopened hand sanitizer, let alone notebooks & pencils. *I think our kid has enough school supplies to take care of HER future kids.

Business Week estimates the "gray" economy as about 10% of GDP. *(FWIW they also estimate the drug economy as another 10%, but credible sources are hard to evaluate.) *Perennial mall shoppers will be hardest hit by the "fair" tax. *But the malls will empty out pretty quickly as the economy moves to resales & barter.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:11 PM   #138
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
JG, every now and then the American people get riled up enough
about something to do the "impossible".* Think Prohibition and
subsequent repeal.* Think woman suffrage.* Think emancipation.
Think "man on the moon".* etc, etc, etc.

If you are a libertarian, or at least a follower of the Rand Cult, one
would think you would be interested in the "fair tax" idea, at
least as an intellectual exercise.*

Yes, the whole idea is probably doomed to failure because of
cynics like you and the vast majority of others who are
spoon fed their "opinions" by special interest groups.*

But, IMO, it is not good enough to reject a radical idea out of hand
just because it seems impossible or conflicts with your personal
biases.*

I think this idea deserves careful, thoughtful analysis.* Like I said
before, I am still in the information soak mode ...... leaning
toward acceptance, but still have reservations about
already taxed savings, how much prices will really drop, etc.

Cheers,

Charlie* * *
A very thoughtful post Charlie.

Yes, I am cynical to a fault. I expect very little from people and they rarely even come up to what I expect. It's not that I am not interested
in the debate. It's just that I'd rather debate something that might
have , ...........oh, say a .0000000000001 chance of happening.
This idea is DOA.

JG
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 12:17 PM   #139
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
JG, every now and then the American people get riled up enough
about something to do the "impossible".* Think Prohibition and
subsequent repeal.* Think woman suffrage.* Think emancipation.
Think "man on the moon".* etc, etc, etc.

How true!

Here's an interview with the author of the now famous Fair Tax book.

http://www.smartmoney.com/theproshop...story=20050811
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 01:15 PM   #140
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by retire@40
The "income tax" recordkeeping will be replaced with "sales tax" recordkeeping, so that's a non-issue.
Tax record keeping for individuals would be ZERO. That is not a "non-issue". It may be a wash for businesses. I run a very small side business and I already collect sales tax for the state of Texas. It's a trivial task compared to my 1040 return!
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