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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-12-2005, 01:27 PM   #141
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin_Explorer
Tax record keeping for individuals would be ZERO.* That is not a "non-issue".* It may be a wash for businesses.* *I run a very small side business and I already collect sales tax for the state of Texas.* It's a trivial task compared to my 1040 return!
I totally agree. That's why I mentioned that if the recordkeeping burden for fairtax is the same as that for the income tax, I will not support it; but every common sense in my body tells me otherwise.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-13-2005, 07:22 AM   #142
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

I think the FairTax is an interesting concept....one question:

Why do proponents assume that employers will pay their employees the same gross pay?


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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-13-2005, 07:47 AM   #143
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!




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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-13-2005, 08:54 AM   #144
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
I think the FairTax is an interesting concept....one question:

Why do proponents assume that employers will pay their employees the same gross pay?
Yep. I've mentioned this before, I think on another board. You work for 100 bucks and your boss pays you 100 bucks because he knows you really only get 70 bucks of it and you need the 70 bucks to live on.

If he knew you didn't have to pay taxes he'd just start paying you 70 bucks and tell you to F off you're life hasnt changed any. But now his bottom line gets real fat. There is no market incentive inherent in this scenario to cause anybody to lower prices since the public has the same amount of take-home pay as before. Plus he gets even fatter as he no longer pays taxes himself, plus he gets to fire at least some of his accounting overhead.

It's a wealth concentration and redistribution trap based on a government policy
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-13-2005, 09:09 AM   #145
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Extreme profit margins (usually) ensure that competitors will drive the price down....

I just think that in the short term, salaries and prices will fluctuate and then both will probably settle somewhere lower. This makes the evaluation of the FairTax a little more complicated.

This "muddiness" does not necessarily kill the idea for me....

If some states can "survive" with just a sales tax, then why can't the Fed?
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-13-2005, 01:19 PM   #146
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

I seriously doubt that employers will be able to keep all of the
benefit of zero taxes. Some will go to product price reduction just
to keep up with the competition in the fight for market share.
Some will be given back to the shareholders in the form of
increased dividends. Some will be retained as extra profit and,IMHO,
some will be passed on to the employees.

The great hand of Adam Smith will parcial it out according to market
place forces.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-13-2005, 01:29 PM   #147
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

BTW, razztazz, what employer could keep a straight face when he
argues that the employee "only needs $70 now instead of $100"
when the employee has to pay a 30% sales tax for the same basket
of goods?

Get serious, man!

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-13-2005, 01:41 PM   #148
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
BTW, razztazz, what employer could keep a straight face when he argues that the employee "only needs $70 now instead of $100" when the employee has to pay a 30% sales tax for the same basket of goods?
Get serious, man!
Cheers,
Charlie
Marketing, taking advantage of people, and favorable legislation. You get serious.


Quote:
Some will be retained as extra profit and,IMHO,
some will be passed on to the employees.

The great hand of Adam Smith will parcial it out according to market place forces.

Cheers,
People who work for a living have to depend on YOUR opinion to get what's coming to them? Gee, how can we NOT afford to vote for this?

Just because "the market" parcels out this and that a certain way does not mean it is the best way. It is simply ---A--- way. The way the mop flopped. And will by definition favor those with an advantage and therefore not subject, or less subject, to those market forces.

As far as Smitty's hand, even he spoke of it only in theoretical terms admiting that it probably would not work in real life due to people's darker nature. Particularly the Merchant Class and Master Maufacture6rs, as he called them. Read the book. It's long but very illucidating. And holds little resemblance to current business models or economic theories

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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-13-2005, 01:59 PM   #149
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

razztaz, I can see it is pointless to argue with you and a waste
of my time.

Have a good day.

Charlie
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-14-2005, 05:58 AM   #150
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Hi charlie,

Gaining steam, or losing steam, I think you're getting steamed.

"We certainly are not going to find the answers in here." ... Andy Sipowitz


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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-14-2005, 08:35 AM   #151
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
razztaz, I can see it is pointless to argue with you and a waste of my time.

Have a good day.

Charlie
I knew you hadn't read the book. Have a nice day. Anybody else? The buffet is open. Serve yourself
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-14-2005, 08:47 AM   #152
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by razztazz
I knew you hadn't read the book. Have a nice day. Anybody else? The buffet is open.* Serve yourself
I am done with this topic, but I have read "The Book". I'm talking the Bible folks, much more interesting than this tax stuff. I did bog down in the Old Testament a little, especially with that "Numbers" chapter,
and I'm an accountant. Anyway, I did it just to say I had done it.
Can't say I was inspired but I can quote a lot of scripture.

JG
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-14-2005, 09:58 PM   #153
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Anyone who believes that corporations are going to pass along tax reductions in their pricing has never sat in on a large corporation marketing meeting that sets prices.

The un-Fair tax lets corporations and the wealthy out of paying a number of direct taxes and pushes all tax collection onto the consumer. Anyone who believes that this kind of program is going to be good for the consumer probably believes in the tooth fairy.

Anyone who believes that we can move from an income tax system to a sales tax system and still allow retired consumers to come out ahead apparently doesn't understand what "income" and "consumption" mean.

But on the other hand . . . anyone who isn't outraged by our current administration just isn't paying attention. :P :P :P
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 07:34 AM   #154
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
Anyone who believes that corporations are going to pass along tax reductions in their pricing has never sat in on a large corporation marketing meeting that sets prices.

The un-Fair tax lets corporations and the wealthy out of paying a number of direct taxes and pushes all tax collection onto the consumer.* Anyone who believes that this kind of program is going to be good for the consumer probably believes in the tooth fairy.*

Anyone who believes that we can move from an income tax system to a sales tax system and still allow retired consumers to come out ahead apparently doesn't understand what "income" and "consumption" mean.

But on the other hand . . . anyone who isn't outraged by our current administration just isn't paying attention.* *:P :P :P
I'm outraged, so I guess that means I am paying attention.
Agree completely on your take on the "tax thing". Good post!

JG
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 10:35 AM   #155
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Haven't read the book and quickly browsed through 11 pages...
but the tax doesn't seem fair to me. Maybe I've been brainwashed by the government..
but let me get this straight:
two families, exact same consumption, in all respects alike except that one inherits millions of dollars and make $250,000/y and the other family makes $60,000. They pay the same amount of taxes? I guess it depends on your opinion of what one reasonably owes in order to partake in one's society/ live in a country/ enjoy the benefits, etc.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 11:08 AM   #156
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
Anyone who believes that corporations are going to pass along tax reductions in their pricing has never sat in on a large corporation marketing meeting that sets prices.

The un-Fair tax lets corporations and the wealthy out of paying a number of direct taxes and pushes all tax collection onto the consumer.* Anyone who believes that this kind of program is going to be good for the consumer probably believes in the tooth fairy.*

Anyone who believes that we can move from an income tax system to a sales tax system and still allow retired consumers to come out ahead apparently doesn't understand what "income" and "consumption" mean.

But on the other hand . . . anyone who isn't outraged by our current administration just isn't paying attention.* *:P :P :P
Quite a bit of personal criticism of "anyone" in this post.* How about some facts instead of personal attacks?
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 11:27 AM   #157
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Of course companies will charge what the traffic will bear ......
but not at the expense of loosing market share. *Why do you
think inflation is not raging today? *It is in some part, at least, due
to the lack of pricing power in many sectors of our economy.

SG, I think you may be making the mistake of extrapolating one
or two data points to draw a general conclusion. *I seriously doubt
that you have sat in on a representative number of companies
marketing meetings. *Take my sector for example (laundromats).
It is very hard to raise prices to match inflation due to the
extreme saturation of the market in the "good" areas. *

The American auto manufacturers would welcome the chance to
regain some market share as well, IMO. *The list is a long one.

BTW, I am still waiting for you to correct the calculation error
in an earlier post that I responded to in reply #91. *Your
conclusion based on that example is not supported by a
correct calculation.

I also showed how an old couple (my wife and I) with annual
consumption of about $35,000 would still do marginally beter
under the fair tax system ...... but you won't buy that probably
because I assumed a 15% *pre fair tax reduction in prices.

I think we are at the point where we should agree to disagree,
don't you? *The only reason I posted this was to provide a
counter balance.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 06:13 PM   #158
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
The un-Fair tax lets corporations and the wealthy out of paying a number of direct taxes and pushes all tax collection onto the consumer.* Anyone who believes that this kind of program is going to be good for the consumer probably believes in the tooth fairy.*
I can also reason that a tax system that actually discourages work and is less discouraging of consumption is not the type of policy that can make a country great.

Attempting to require that a new tax system be to the benefit of everyone at all times is requiring a fool's errand. Yes, consumption will cost more. Production less. Saving less. Frugal living less than new consumption. And so on. I am not A consumer, but rather consumer is just one hat that I wear.

All of my arguments about this tax issue relate to what I think it would mean to the country. For every argument that the sales tax proposal is unfair I can come up with an example of how the current system is unfair. No system will be fair for every possible example you can conjure up. Get over it.

As for the tooth fairy, how do YOU explain the money under my pillow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
But on the other hand . . . anyone who isn't outraged by our current administration just isn't paying attention.* *:P :P :P
On this we agree!
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 07:19 PM   #159
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie

SG, I think you may be making the mistake of extrapolating one
or two data points to draw a general conclusion. *I seriously doubt
that you have sat in on a representative number of companies
marketing meetings.
Only a handfull. Of course we studied general practices of every company we could in the process and we had people attending those meetings who consulted or worked for dozens of other companies. If my data base is too weak to depend on, what data base are you working from? How many have you sat in on? It's easy to nit-pick someone who attempts to put up real numbers, but I'm waiting for you to back up your own assumptions with even one data point. For example, why do you assume that corporate taxes add 30% to the price of new products. I know that for most electronics and semiconductors this number is more than an order of magnitude too high. It might be that high for liquor and tobacco, but I am skeptical that corporate tax has significant impact on the cost of most items we buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
Take my sector for example (laundromats).
It is very hard to raise prices to match inflation due to the
extreme saturation of the market in the "good" areas. *
How will the un-Fair tax change that, Charlie? Let's imagine, for a moment that suddently every laundromat owner can save 7 cents on every washer load . . . are you all going to go out and reduce the cost per load to the consumer? I want to see those coin operated machines that accept 93 cents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
The American auto manufacturers would welcome the chance to
regain some market share as well, IMO. *The list is a long one.
Yes, and what data or marketing survey are you reading that indicates that the Fair Tax will change the fate of the American auto manufacturers? That's rediculous. There is not such data from any reliable source. Just because some neo-con spouts that propaganda doesn't make it true. The American auto manufacturers have plenty of problems that keep them from being more competitive with Asian manufactureres. Frankly, I doubt that you could give American cars away in much of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
BTW, I am still waiting for you to correct the calculation error
in an earlier post that I responded to in reply #91. *Your
conclusion based on that example is not supported by a
correct calculation.
I've been camping for the past 3 days and haven't gotten a chance to read all the posts, Charlie. Can you tell me which of the many pages your post is on? And which conclusion of mine do you think is in error? I'll look at my calculations again. But I posted detailed calculations for 6 different cases. I've yet to see one of the proponents of this idea post anything but hand-waving worship of the neo-con mantra.

I also showed how an old couple (my wife and I) with annual
consumption of about $35,000 would still do marginally beter
under the fair tax system ...... but you won't buy that probably
because I assumed a 15% *pre fair tax reduction in prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
I think we are at the point where we should agree to disagree,
don't you? *The only reason I posted this was to provide a
counter balance.
Charlie, I believe that you are going to believe whatever you hear spouted from this administration. I am going to believe what the calculations show me. I've plugged in real data for my life situation and I can see that the un-Fair Tax does not seem fair to me at all. In fact, it would cost me an equivalent of about $250,000 in current retirement nest egg value (about $9000 per year). So, I guess we have reached that point. You will have blind faith in the neo-con administration. I will place my faith in real data and calculations.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 07:31 PM   #160
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Quite a bit of personal criticism of "anyone" in this post.* How about some facts instead of personal attacks?
This is almost funny.

I've posted three posts with complete calculations of six different tax situtations -- 3 for working couples and 3 for retired couples. I've used both real income, tax, and spending data for 2 cases and real tax rates with hypothetical income and spending for 4 others.

The criticism from those with blind faith in the neo-con proposal has been to speculate wildly about how the situation might change. These speculations about the impact of tax infrastructure and corporate income tax on the price of products have been offered without a single piece of data backing the arm-waving.

Actually, it seems unbelievable to me that we even need to discuss the detailed dollar and cents impact of this proposal to see through it.

For all of you un-Fair Tax proponents: If you are convinced that you will pay less, who do you think is going to pay more?

It's not the corporations. They will no longer have to pay taxes directly.

It's not the ultra-wealthy. They get much of their lifetime income from capital gains and from inheritance.

And if you think that this Fair Tax is going to be so much more efficient to collect that we will save enough money to reduce overall tax burden for everyone . . . well, I would like to sample some of the Kool-aid you are drinking. Show me some data. I don't believe it.
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