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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 07:49 PM   #161
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

World trade, fair trade, international competitiveness - World is Flat ala Friedman.

Taxing and revenue along with health/pension business costs will be intertwined in mix.

Don't anybody run out of gas - this will be with us for a while.

Me - I'm still waiting for Hillary to tell me it's okay to put aside pooh-pooh recycling and kayaks - so I can devote more time to studying the fair tax.

The Russian 2001 jump start/or not - depending on which think tank study one Goggle's up - has both sides lining up 'the study/survey/analysis' juices.

As an old relic of the Cold War - if someone whispered 'fair tax gap' and 'the Ruskie's' into my ear - who knows how I would react.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 08:02 PM   #162
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
For all of you un-Fair Tax proponents:* If you are convinced that you will pay less, who do you think is going to pay more?
Before I give serious consideration to any proposal, this is what I want answered. If you think that "everybody's a winner" then you're not living in the real world.* Somebody is going to pay more tax and somebody is going to pay less tax. If you want serious consideration of this proposal, tell me who we're going to screw when this gets passed. And if you don't know who's going to get screwed, guess what........
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 10:43 PM   #163
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG

For all of you un-Fair Tax proponents:* If you are convinced that you will pay less, who do you think is going to pay more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
Charlie, I believe that you are going to believe whatever you hear spouted from this administration.* I am going to believe what the calculations show me.* I've plugged in real data for my life situation and I can see that the un-Fair Tax does not seem fair to me at all.* In fact, it would cost me an equivalent of about $250,000 in current retirement nest egg value (about $9000 per year).*

You answered your own question.* Wealthy people like you who have amassed a fortune out of the sweat equity of the working class should be ashamed to want to cling on to the current system which rewards free spending and borrowing, while punishing hard work.* You rich people are opposed to fairtax out of selfishness.* You like the current system because you can avoid income tax much more easily than you can the fairtax.* You can ask your lobbyists to get more gimmes at the expense of the rest of the American people.* Did you know the income tax percentage of Mrs. Teresa Highness Kerry?* It's around 12%.* Definitely less than that of someone who is making $20,000/yr.*


Your blind hatred of this administration makes you so blind to everything.* Are you still living in 2000, dreaming of President-elect Al?* Get over it.* After all, the fairtax is not Bush's idea; he didn't even look into it until recently.* I'm not his favorite fan, but I do pity people like you filled with hatred.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 10:48 PM   #164
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin_Explorer
. . . For every argument that the sales tax proposal is unfair I can come up with an example of how the current system is unfair.* No system will be fair for every possible example you can conjure up.* Get over it.

. . .
Of course all tax systems have deficiencies. *But before we all drink the Kool-aid and chant the neo-con mantra, "Fair Tax is better. *Fair Tax is better. . .", let's at least look at who wins, who loses and by what amount. *How can we have a reasonable discussion on the merits of the proposal while the proponents make the naive and unjustified claim that we all win. *I've presented quite a bit of data indicating that middle class and upper middle class retirees will be big losers and that high wage earners will be big winners. *There are clearly other consequences of this proposal, but that's enough for me to see that I don't think it's fair. *

If someone believes that retirement by the middle class is bad for the country and that the rich are paying way too much in tax, then this is the tax proposal for you. * :
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 10:52 PM   #165
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amt



Your blind hatred of this administration makes you so blind to everything.* Are you still living in 2000, dreaming of President-elect Al?* Get over it.* After all, the fairtax is not Bush's idea; he didn't even look into it until recently.* I'm not his favorite fan, but I do pity people like you filled with hatred.
Then, please answer my question: who is going to get screwed in this fair tax deal?
Do you really think the government will be able to cheaply and effectively give out a rebate to everyone so that this tax is not regressive? Do you know a lot of low income people? *I do at my workplace. Many don't even have bank accounts. Where are they going to cash these rebate checks? Many do not even live at the same address for more than two years. Where are these checks going to be sent? Do you know how many pay checks we get back at work because the employee didn't give us their new address? And you think this system will reduce bureaucracy?
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-15-2005, 11:49 PM   #166
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amt


You answered your own question.* Wealthy people like you who have amassed a fortune out of the sweat equity of the working class should be ashamed to want to cling on to the current system which rewards free spending and borrowing, while punishing hard work.* You rich people are opposed to fairtax out of selfishness.* You like the current system because you can avoid income tax much more easily than you can the fairtax.* You can ask your lobbyists to get more gimmes at the expense of the rest of the American people.* Did you know the income tax percentage of Mrs. Teresa Highness Kerry?* It's around 12%.* Definitely less than that of someone who is making $20,000/yr.*


Your blind hatred of this administration makes you so blind to everything.* Are you still living in 2000, dreaming of President-elect Al?* Get over it.* After all, the fairtax is not Bush's idea; he didn't even look into it until recently.* I'm not his favorite fan, but I do pity people like you filled with hatred.
Wow. :

I was addressing the Fair Tax proposal and it's impact on different people, but I have no idea how it would affect Teresa Kerry. If I knew more about her tax situation, my guess is that I would think that she is not paying her fair share of taxes. Of course based on the trends I saw in the analysis of my earlier posts, my guess is also that the Fair Tax would only serve to reduce her tax burden even more. I also know nothing about Al Gore's tax situation. I'm not sure what either Kerry or Gore have to do with the Fair Tax proposal or what point you are trying to make by bringing them up.

You seem to have missed the point of the earlier analysis of the Fair Tax. It tends to let the rich off, not tax them at higher rates. From your comments, it sounds like you didn't understand that and believed that it would result in higher taxes for the rich.

As for me, my career, lifestyle and tax situation, your hatred is clear. But you really don't know anything about me.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-16-2005, 08:46 AM   #167
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amt
Did you know the income tax percentage of Mrs. Teresa Highness Kerry?* It's around 12%.* Definitely less than that of someone who is making $20,000/yr.
Again, you are making up the facts and then you are believing them and putting a spin on them to try to convince the weak.

If you told the WHOLE story, you would have said she invested in tax free municipal bonds just like anyone else could, even you.

And by the way, someone that makes $20K a year would only pay just over 7% of that in income taxes.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-16-2005, 08:49 AM   #168
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Any "fortune" I have amassed was from my own sweat equity, and somewhat intelligent investing, and LBYM. If I have to give it all to the "poor", when I'm broke, then WB or BG can give me some of theirs...

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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-16-2005, 12:30 PM   #169
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

SG, you consistently make the same mistake in your calculations.
If a widget is priced at $100, you will pay an additional tax of $30,
not $23.*

This alters the conclusion in your post #76 (couple earning $100,000)
posted on Aug 11, 2005 at 12:25:27 on this thread.* I replied on
post #91, same thread.

As for corporations not paying any taxes, that is bogus.* All companies
and the government too for, that matter, will pay the fair tax on goods
and services not directly tied to the price of a widget (indirect overhead).

Companies will have to pay the tax on new equipment, new buildings,
etc. as I understand the proposal.

As for the tax already built into the current price of goods and services,
the estimate is 22-25% according to the studies quoted by the fair
tax group.* You probably won't believe that so please point me to a
reference that rebuts that estimate.* I would truly like to study a
contrary report.

Your post #74 on page 5 is disingenuous at best.* You not only make
errors in the fair tax calculation but you use a year in which you
bought a new car to claim that you are getting screwed by $9000
per year.* You should do a re-calculation using an average annual
expenditure and don't forget the prebate of $4283 you would receive
annually under the fair tax system to draw your conclusion.

Like you, I go by the numbers ..... just try to get yours right, please.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-16-2005, 05:33 PM   #170
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
SG, you consistently make the same mistake in your calculations.
If a widget is priced at $100, you will pay an additional tax of $30,
not $23.*

This alters the conclusion in your post #76 (couple earning $100,000)
posted on Aug 11, 2005 at 12:25:27 on this thread.* I replied on
post #91, same thread.
Charlie,

I'll take these one at a time. While I read some articles that claimed the Fair Tax proposal was actually a 30% sales tax, I found others that used 23%. I used 23% in my calculations since that is clearly the least offensive to retirees. A 30% rate makes everything worse for retirees.

But here's another way for you to look at the data. In my calculations I did not assume that prices would be reduced by elimination of corporate taxes. If I grant you a 23% reduction in product costs resulting from elimination of the corporate tax with a 30% Fair Tax, then the resulting effect is the same as no reduction in product cost and a 23% Fair Tax. In other words, the numbers come out the same.

Quote:
Price*(1-Corp Tax Savings)*30% = Price*23%

Solve for Corp Tax Savings and you come up with 23%
So all the results are consistent with your assumptions. If, on the other hand, corporate tax savings is less than 23%, then the negative impact on the retiree is significantly worse than I specified. In fact, for my own situation in 2004 (my first year in retirement), a 30% Fair Tax with no corporate tax saving would have cost me $14,328.30 more than I actually had to pay. That's more than 54% worse than I indicated in my post. The current nest egg value required to pay this Fair Tax burden through 30 years of retirement would be more than $358,000.

Thanks for pointing out that my calculations were probably optimistic and that the Fair Tax might actually be much worse for retirees.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-16-2005, 05:41 PM   #171
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
. . .
As for corporations not paying any taxes, that is bogus.* All companies
and the government too for, that matter, will pay the fair tax on goods
and services not directly tied to the price of a widget (indirect overhead).

Companies will have to pay the tax on new equipment, new buildings,
etc. as I understand the proposal.
So you are saying the corporations will pay tax under the new proposal. I think that is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
As for the tax already built into the current price of goods and services,
the estimate is 22-25% according to the studies quoted by the fair
tax group.* . . .
But the corporations are still going to save 22% to 25% in taxes.

Which is it? Are they going to pay taxes or are they going to reduce costs because they don't pay taxes?

Anyway, as you can see in the post above, I grant you 23% tax savings and all my calculations work as presented. If you want to change that, you can follow the procedure I outlined in my first post and you will still see that the Fair Tax transfers tax burden from the ultra-wealthy onto the middle class retired in a very big way. The only thing that changes with these numerical assumptions is the breakpoints where that transfer happens.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-16-2005, 05:50 PM   #172
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
. . .You probably won't believe that so please point me to a
reference that rebuts that estimate.* I would truly like to study a
contrary report.

. . .
I am skeptical of a number provided without backup by the proponents of the proposal. I would think that the ratio of corporate tax to product cost varies dramatically from product to product. Items requiring high amounts of high skilled labor might include quite a bit of social security and medicare tax in their tax. Items that are mass produced by machines using low skilled operators might not be significantly impacted by tax.

But the point has been addressed. Take the 23% of the proponents and the 30% Fair Tax rate and read the numbers as they are.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-16-2005, 06:15 PM   #173
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
. . .
Your post #74 on page 5 is disingenuous at best.* You not only make
errors in the fair tax calculation but you use a year in which you
bought a new car to claim that you are getting screwed by $9000
per year.* You should do a re-calculation using an average annual
expenditure and don't forget the prebate of $4283 you would receive
annually under the fair tax system to draw your conclusion.

. . .
Charlie, those are the numbers from my records and my tax returns for those years. As for the car purchase, it is difficult to compute the exact impact on my annual expense rate. The reason it does not add much (if any) is because I compute my budgets with and without infrequent purchases, then average the cost of those infrequent purchases over all 9 years that I've kept accurate records. DW and I plan to spend money on computers, house maintenance, foriegn travel, car purchase, etc. on an infrequent basis. On years we don't buy a new car, we pay for a trip to Egypt or Peru, etc. Since I've only had one full year in retirement to look at, I'm not sure what to consider average yet. My spending in 2003 was actually the anomolous year in spending. DW and I cut way back the latter half of that year as we entered retirement. We were a little bit nervous about giving up salary and we were far too conservative. It took awhile before we became comfortable spending as much money as we now do on travel.

I did include a prebate of $3000 in all calculations. That's a number I found in one of the articles I read. If $4238 is the actual prebate amount, then the amount of Fair Tax I have stated is off by $1238 in each case. I think it is fair to say that this number is in the noise.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-18-2005, 01:04 PM   #174
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

The best link I have found so far on the Fair Tax proposal is shown
below.* It has a long list of reference articles and studies.* The
article seems to be fairly unbiased, IMO, presenting pro and con
viewpoints on each issue.

I highly recommend that all of you take a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax...te_endorsement

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-18-2005, 01:07 PM   #175
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Did you see the Senator from Georgia on Van Susterin last night?* He made it sound good.*

The book is on the New York Times Best Seller list.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-18-2005, 02:09 PM   #176
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
. . .
I highly recommend that all of you take a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax...te_endorsement

From Charlie's source:

". . .

Congressís Joint Committee on Taxation evaluated a similar proposal and determined that a revenue-neutral plan would require a tax rate of around 36%.[4][5] Other estimates range up to a 50% tax.[6][7][8] When presented as a traditional sales tax, these rates would be 50% and 100% respectively.

These studies suggest any of three likely outcomes to a FairTax-like tax regime: 1) a sales tax is imposed at the revenue-neutral rate, having no effect on the fiscal budget. 2) a sales tax is imposed at a lower rate, with the resulting budget gap filled by new federal debt. 3) a sales tax is imposed at a lower rate, with the resulting budget gap filled by reduction in federal spending.
. . .
Economist William G. Gale at the Brookings Institute writes: "Under the AFT proposal, taxes would rise for households in the bottom 90% of the income distribution, while households in the top 1 percent would receive an average tax cut of over $75,000."
. . .
Taxes without withholding and with self-reporting, such as FairTax, can see evasion rates of 30% or more. William Gale has estimated that an evasion rate of 20% would require a sales tax rate above 51% in order to replace revenue lost through evasion. [16][17]
. . .
Opponents also argue that the increase in sales tax (needed to replace the loss of revenue from other taxes) would produce such a high rate that there would be a much higher incentive to trade on the black market, and much of the economy would be driven underground.

. . .
If the FairTax bill is passed, elimination of income taxation is not guaranteed, and passage of this measure may in fact simply add an additional tax system. The definitive elimination of income taxation requires a repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.[19] Since passing the FairTax would only require a simple majority in each house of Congress and the signature of the President, and repeal of a Constitutional Amendment must be approved by two thirds of each house of Congress, and three quarters of the individual U.S. states, it is possible that passage of the FairTax bill will simply add another tax system rather than replacing the existing one.

. . .
In this case, individuals under the current system who accumulated savings from ordinary income (by choosing not to spend their money when the income was earned) paid taxes on that income before it was placed in savings. When individuals spend their money saved under the current system, that spending would be subject to new federal taxes. People living through the transition find both their earning and their spending taxed.

The FairTax proposal does not address the transition effect on taxpayers who have accumulated significant savings from after-tax dollars, especially retirees who have finished their careers and switched to spending down their life savings. Under the FairTax proposal, this money would be fully taxed again as it is spent. Critics have spoken out against the FairTax proposal, claiming that it would result in double taxation. [20] [21] [22]

. . .
States and municipalities would see their cost of debt increase. Currently, the federal income tax system provides tax advantages to state and local government bonds. Specifically, the interest paid on such securities is exempt from federal taxation. This "tax discount" allows state and local governments to issue debt at low yields, which reduces their interest costs. By eliminating income taxes, FairTax removes the tax advantage of holding state and local bonds. Issuers would have to offer higher interest rates to attract investors.
. . .
The current federal tax regime allows individuals to deduct the interest cost on home mortgages. This tax break reduces the actual cost of home loans. Since FairTax ends income taxation, the cost of a home loan will no longer be reduced by the tax deduction. In addition, FairTax taxation would be applied to new construction, including homes.
. . .
Retailers suffering from tax-free direct mail competition or from tax-free sales from out of state retailers would see a major competitive disadvantage removed. However, this would have the effect of discouraging consumers from purchasing items through the thriving mail-order and online industry, potentially hurting a multi-billion-dollar segment of the American economy.
. . . "

The proponent's side of the story is also presented in this source. Maybe some of you believe the proponent's view of this tax is always right and that none of the issues raised above is real. That's not naive.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-18-2005, 04:11 PM   #177
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

The idea of a "Fair Tax" reminds me of a Monday Night Football game in the 70's. The old Cleveland Browns had a receiver on the field named Fair Hooker (I'm not making this up). Don Meredith commented from the booth, "Fair Hooker" followed by a short pause, "Never met one." REW

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Old 08-18-2005, 06:42 PM   #178
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
The idea of a "Fair Tax" reminds me of a Monday Night Football game in the 70's. The old Cleveland Browns had a receiver on the field named Fair Hooker (I'm not making this up). Don Meredith commented from the booth, "Fair Hooker" followed by a short pause, "Never met one." REW

Yep, Mr. Hooker did play. Speaking of MNF, I remember when the Oilers were losing on MNF by 20-30 points. Dandy, Howard and Frank were there, trying to keep it interesting. They panned the stands, came upon a big guy looking mad. Apparently, he noticed the camera on him. Gave them a large, persistent and lingering finger. Dandy Don, "Well, that's just about the way everything is going tonite." I do think Mr. Meridith and Howard were great; probably the reason why MNF caught on.
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-18-2005, 08:48 PM   #179
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

Well, SG pulled out most of the "cons". If you want the other side
of the story, read the link.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!
Old 08-18-2005, 09:40 PM   #180
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Re: The FairTax - gaining steam!

If the "cons" amount to a financial death sentence, the "pros" don't have much relevance.
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