The fire movement’s champions hidden realities..

[Another Reader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOL! Garbage In; Garbage Out 1. He is not single. 2. Big difference between earning $57,000 from a job and getting $57,000 in dividends and other investment income. 3. Child tax credit. 4. What else? Oh, deduction for paying for health insurance.

No FICA either.

[rayinpenn]

<b>LOL

1. He is not single.
2. Big difference between earning $57,000 from a job and getting $57,000 in dividends and other investment income.
3. Child tax credit.
4. What else? Oh, deduction for paying for health insurance. </b>

1. Point of order for most people the nest egg is mostly pre tax 401k etc., withdrawals from which are treated as ordinary income.
2. The ex may get the deduction.

Let’s not argue its just an rough estimate. IMHO The point is the 4% doesn’t work for a 44 year old. Why? more than 33 year life expectancy. Crazy healthcare expenses didn’t exist when the rule was formulated.

[LOL!]

Folks under age 59.5 as these FIRE folks are not withdrawing from a 401(k) usually at age 44. They are using money saved/invested outside of tax-advantaged accounts and will get to the 401(k)/IRA when they are older. Also because of contribution limits to 401(k)s, it would be very difficult for a 44 year-old to have $1.4 million in just the 401(k) and IRAs. Just ask the FIRE'd folks on this forum.

Yes, 4% doesn't work, but 3.3% to 3.5% does work. These folks are generally not living in Manhattan and spending the big bucks.

Clearly, people in the USA can live on very little income if they choose to do so. There are likely many 44 year-old ex-military who put in 20 years and get a pension for instance.

I suppose if anyone can diss MMM, then it would be his acolytes who failed and started their own blogs dissing him.

[clifp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkinwood I don't understand the animosity towards MMM. He has inspired so many to step off the consumerism carousel and start on this FIRE journey. Like Maenad above, I believe that the bulk of FIRE enthusiasts research this stuff and are quite grounded in reality.

I think my biggest issue with MMM is claiming (or at least not correcting people) as being the father of the FIRE movement. Couple with his lack of participation in the forums on his blog site.

If anybody should get the title of father of the FIRE movement it would be John Greany (Intercst) who popularized the Trinty study, and even came up with the acronym on Motley Fool Retire Early forum and published a ton of data on the The Retire Early Home Page.

I'd say this forum is another potential father. MMM blog posts alone aren't nearly enough information to actually make a successful early retirement.
But between FireCalc and the forum, there is more than enough info here.

[Another Reader]

I think Your Money or Your Life should be credited as well.

Again, you need to look at how these people manage their expenses. Because their taxable income is low, they qualify for the ACA sweet spot - full subsidies and CSR. Fuego's kids qualify for Medicaid in North Carolina. Medicaid there appears to be a reasonable choice with good doctors and hospitals accepting the Medicaid payments. Healthcare costs are very low for most younger FIRE-ees.

These folks tend to drive older cars and use them sparingly. They often have paid for houses in LCOL or MCOL locations. They consume less overall. They spend time with their kids instead of putting them in daycare when young and in expensive activities when they are older. Kind of like when we were kids and mom stayed home, but with both parents.

Some have money invested in taxable accounts. Some I think are pulling from Roth contributions as needed. Some have rental properties - no depletion there and very favorable tax treatment. And some write blogs or do some part time work to supplement their other income. Almost all of the current generation of FIRE-ees benefited from the run up in asset values over the last ten years. It might be a lot tougher to do this over the next ten years.

Managing expenses is the key. Fuego publishes his in some detail. Take a look before you conclude FIRE is not possible in your 30's.

[rayinpenn]

Another Reader: <u>Fuego's kids qualify for Medicaid in North Carolina.</u>

As long as I am able bodied and of sound mind I am not comfortable being “on the dole” and having other people pay for my insurance.

[rayinpenn]

Revised.

[Another Reader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayinpenn <b>Fuego's kids qualify for Medicaid in North Carolina.</b. Respectfully, As long as I am able bodied and of sound mind-I personally am not comfortable “living on the dole”.

When you put his family income in the ACA application, this is the option spit out. They are not eligible for a subsidized plan because of how the ACA is structured. Many moderate income families with multiple kids are in this position, even in states without expanded Medicaid. If you accept an ACA subsidy, you are on the dole as well. The taxpayers pay for some or all of your care in both situations.

[donheff]

MMM just announced that he has divorced. Everything is different now.

[SmallCityDave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Reader When you put his family income in the ACA application, this is the option spit out. They are not eligible for a subsidized plan because of how the ACA is structured. Many moderate income families with multiple kids are in this position, even in states without expanded Medicaid. If you accept an ACA subsidy, you are on the dole as well. The taxpayers pay for some or all of your care in both situations.

There are other options that have nothing to do with the government.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmallCityDave There are other options that have nothing to do with the government.

Please expand.

[ivinsfan]

I think the OP's whole premise is faulty. I believe the number 25 plus HI in the low 30's means that taking the base expenses and adding HI totals lows 30's. You misinterpreted,younger people with one child won't be paying 30 thousand a YEAR in HI. So all your numbers are off.

[Another Reader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmallCityDave There are other options that have nothing to do with the government.

Not if you wanted to comply with the law and not incur the penalty.

The system we have created is inconsistent and has a lot of holes. Congress and the administrative branch of the federal government created and approved this. The third branch of the federal government declined to intervene.

I would not want my kids on Medi-Cal, which is Medicaid in California and I would do a lot to avoid that. However, if I were in the income range that put them on Medicaid in a state where the care is of an acceptable level, I would shrug and move on to other concerns.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewer12345 MMM has been more full of it than a manure spreader pretty much from the start as even a casual examination of his claims should make clear. This is news?

Coffee, out my nose and on my shirt. Thanks. [emoji23]

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Reader Not if you wanted to comply with the law and not incur the penalty. The system we have created is inconsistent and has a lot of holes. Congress and the administrative branch of the federal government created and approved this. The third branch of the federal government declined to intervene. I would not want my kids on Medi-Cal, which is Medicaid in California and I would do a lot to avoid that. However, if I were in the income range that put them on Medicaid in a state where the care is of an acceptable level, I would shrug and move on to other concerns.

Incorrect I believe the OP is talking about health share ministries which is a whole different topic.

[SmallCityDave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Reader Not if you wanted to comply with the law and not incur the penalty. The system we have created is inconsistent and has a lot of holes. Congress and the administrative branch of the federal government created and approved this. The third branch of the federal government declined to intervene. I would not want my kids on Medi-Cal, which is Medicaid in California and I would do a lot to avoid that. However, if I were in the income range that put them on Medicaid in a state where the care is of an acceptable level, I would shrug and move on to other concerns.

I thought they did away with the penalty? Regardless the penalty isn't that bad compared to the insurance rates.


You could always pay out of pocket or participate in a cost sharing programs especially if your net worth isn't too high.

[rayinpenn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivinsfan I think the OP's whole premise is faulty. I believe the number 25 plus HI in the low 30's means that taking the base expenses and adding HI totals lows 30's. You misinterpreted,younger people with one child won't be paying 30 thousand a YEAR in HI. So all your numbers are off.

Respectfully,
1)My quote FOR OCARE was well above the 30K
2)My unsubsidized price for work was $3,353 a month. Post retirement (tomorrow)
3) the cutoff for subsidies is in the low 60s I earn significantly over that.

[ESRwannabe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hausfrau The only FIRE blog I read is Root of Good. I think there is a lot of transparency and I really appreciate the detailed expenses. I like to think we are doing pretty well (and we are) but the way he and his wife keep spending in check while raising children (and traveling!) is really inspiring to me.

I agree with others here that Root of Good and Go Curry Cracker are the two best fire blogs to follow. Financial Samuari has good info, but the author is not someone you can relate to as he lives in San Francisco and feels poor even with $6+ million in assets.

Root of Good is literally a genius at not spending money. Go Curry Cracker spends a lot more money but they are expats in Taiwan, which makes a huge difference in taxes (I think they pay $0 US taxes).

Mr. Free at 33 is another good one to follow. He is an expat in Chiang Mai Thailand and lives off of a very low amount (like $1,300 a month). He is the most relate able to me. I have similar sized taxable investments ($416k)(I also have another $100k in 401k/Roth and a pension currently valued a little over $500k). I am also single and no kids like he is. So I could do what he is doing if I wanted to.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivinsfan Incorrect I believe the OP is talking about health share ministries which is a whole different topic.

Oh, non-insurance.

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayinpenn Respectfully, 1)My quote FOR OCARE was well above the 30K 2)My unsubsidized price for work was $3,353 a month. Post retirement (tomorrow) 3) the cutoff for subsidies is in the low 60s I earn significantly over that.

Ray you are a lot older then MMM, have you priced a HD ACA plan?