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08-17-2019, 12:24 PM
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#201
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,886
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The two major differences I see in opportunities between now and when I started my c*reer are: Pensions are less likely and one-company-for-c*reer are almost non existent now. I had both pension and one-company. That DID make it easier to do the MND thing. Having said that, staying within one company (most companies) means that your path is only variable within certain limits. "Good" performers get to the next rung faster then "average" performers. BUT there are few if any opportunities for "quantum" leaps.
Under the current paradigm, good performers can leap-frog companies and get to much more lucrative positions faster than staying within one company. Loyalty is no longer particularly valued by empl*yees or empl*yers.
True, it may take some luck to leap-frog, but acquired skills and selling yourself are more important than luck today. The rules ARE different, but I just don't buy that its a lot more difficult to become MND today. As always, YMMV.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -
Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
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08-17-2019, 01:06 PM
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#202
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 4,633
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No pensions...most private employers happy to show you the door after you turn 50...
I'm getting pretty cynical myself as a Gen X (i.e. "stand by and watch it BURN")
So I'm encouraging my kids to seriously consider spending 20 years in the military to get the pension (they owe several years anyway after having their undergrad paid for by the military)
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08-17-2019, 01:42 PM
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#203
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Ohio
Posts: 3,182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau
Under the current paradigm, good performers can leap-frog companies and get to much more lucrative positions faster than staying within one company. Loyalty is no longer particularly valued by empl*yees or empl*yers.
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I changed jobs a lot, but I kept returning to one company a couple of times - I worked there three separate times. Loyalty wasn't really a thing - I left for good reasons and I came back for good reasons. Each time they welcomed me back.
Obviously I didn't burn any bridges.
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08-18-2019, 07:27 AM
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#204
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 3,941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeirce
I changed jobs a lot, but I kept returning to one company a couple of times - I worked there three separate times. Loyalty wasn't really a thing - I left for good reasons and I came back for good reasons. Each time they welcomed me back.
Obviously I didn't burn any bridges.
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+1,000. Loyalty to organization!!!! LOL. What a quaint concept. Loyalty has no place clouding up what is entirely a business relationship: At-will employers who offer no pension, no contract, no union, shove all retirement and, increasingly, health care responsibilities onto workers who get cost of living adjustments if they are lucky. When I’ve paid my dues doing a good job for 3-5 years leading to my next, better opportunity, the screen door doesn’t hit me on the way out.
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08-18-2019, 07:52 AM
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#205
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Dryer sheet aficionado
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Peachtree City
Posts: 29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWras
I haven't read every post here, but I just wish the world and media would stop chopping us all up into blocks and pitting us against each other. This is a bad trend that is growing steam and really leads to nothing good.
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^^^this exactly
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08-18-2019, 08:30 AM
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#206
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 5,762
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I am quite familiar with someone who emigrated to this county at age 19 with $400 in his pockets to go to college, barely spoke the language, had to work washing dishes for money to eat/rent a room and pay for school, dropped out of school to get married - drove a truck AND worked construction jobs, had six kiddos, and along the way obtained and worked his tail off at a (good) blue collar job. His retirement liquid assets alone . . .
Of course he had the good luck to marry a perfectly charming spouse, who eventually (rather late) started on her own career which allowed certain perks for those aforementioned kiddos, which otherwise they would have probably had to do without.
__________________
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.
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08-18-2019, 09:45 AM
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#207
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Back woods of Fennario
Posts: 1,170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerides
I guess I find it astonishing/sad that so few of us are willing to admit that at least a part of our good fortune is a result of timing and luck. I know that despite working hard, lbym, and doing our best it could have ended up differently.
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It is the height of hubris to attribute ALL the good things that have happened to our generation to our "hard work". Seriously - elbows must hurt all the time for all the back-patting we do to ourselves....
ExFlyboy5 below has the ratio correct, I believe - about 80% circumstances beyond our control and 20% the effort of the individual.
__________________
"Time wounds all heels...." - Groucho Marx
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08-18-2019, 09:56 AM
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#208
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Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 23,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieIG
I am quite familiar with someone who emigrated to this county at age 19 with $400 in his pockets to go to college, barely spoke the language, had to work washing dishes for money to eat/rent a room and pay for school, dropped out of school to get married - drove a truck AND worked construction jobs, had six kiddos, and along the way obtained and worked his tail off at a (good) blue collar job. His retirement liquid assets alone . . .
Of course he had the good luck to marry a perfectly charming spouse, who eventually (rather late) started on her own career which allowed certain perks for those aforementioned kiddos, which otherwise they would have probably had to do without.
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Congratulations and best wishes to you both. Your family is truly the American success story. I know there are many more like you, but that, sadly, doesn't make the news.
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
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08-19-2019, 08:07 AM
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#209
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markola
+1,000. Loyalty to organization!!!! LOL. What a quaint concept. Loyalty has no place clouding up what is entirely a business relationship: At-will employers who offer no pension, no contract, no union, shove all retirement and, increasingly, health care responsibilities onto workers who get cost of living adjustments if they are lucky. When I’ve paid my dues doing a good job for 3-5 years leading to my next, better opportunity, the screen door doesn’t hit me on the way out.
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But one issue with switching companies is you often lose out on a year or two of employee 401K matching when you switch to a new compnay and vesting schedules can take some of that back too. Not to say you shouldn't take better opportunities when they come up, but that is a downside.
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08-19-2019, 10:13 AM
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#210
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRDave
It is the height of hubris to attribute ALL the good things that have happened to our generation to our "hard work". Seriously - elbows must hurt all the time for all the back-patting we do to ourselves....
ExFlyboy5 below has the ratio correct, I believe - about 80% circumstances beyond our control and 20% the effort of the individual.
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I have no idea what the correct ratio is. Certainly, the ratio is different for each of us. Looking back on the time I graduated university and was ready to find full time w*rk, I was 1A draft status (first to be called.) In the luck department, my birthday was drawn late and so I had a high draft number (unlikely to be drafted.) This all happened shortly after graduation and achieving my "real j*b).
Folks today (and in the recent past) don't understand what it was like being under the "threat" of being drafted. Being drafted was a virtual ticket to VN. It colored almost every aspect of life at the time.
I recall planning a quick escape after my last classes of my 3rd year (for a brief "vacation.") I was going to drive to the INDY 500 race and blow off some steam before beginning my 50 hour per week summer j*b to pay for my next (last) year of university. A big announcement (perhaps by DoD or whomever did such things) came out, requiring everyone who wanted to keep their 2S draft status (student deferral) to take an "achievement" test. It was scheduled on one day - no make up. If you didn't take (and pass) the test, you lost your 2S and became 1A on the spot. The test was scheduled for memorial day (yes, the holiday, yes, the traditional day of the INDY 500.) I sat in a 4000 seat auditorium with 2000 other 21 +/- year olds and took a (IIRC) 6 hour test. Apparently I passed as I maintained my 2S deferral until graduation.
Several months later, I and hundreds of other of these same guys boarded busses at the local draft board and traveled to the inspection station for our draft physicals (Watch Arlo Guthrie's "ALICE'S RESTAURANT" if you don't know what a draft physical is like - that movie is pretty accurate although I never saw the "Group W" bench.) Most of us passed including every guy I knew that went that day. You could almost feel the noose tightening as we returned to finish the last couple of months of classes before graduating (and becoming 1A.)
Okay, so if I'm making a point here, it is this: For all the "new" and "different" challenges facing the current crop of folks trying to become the MND, being drafted is NOT one of them. The freedom that provides is difficult to put into words if you never experienced the anxiety and pressure the draft placed on young, would-be millionaires of the future. I understand this is just one aspect of the whole generational debate, but it is not trivial (again, especially if you went through it.) Naturally, YMMV.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -
Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
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08-19-2019, 10:39 AM
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#211
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,713
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^^^^^^^
my draft number was 13. Fortunately it was late enough in the war that there was nobody taken that year. I knew about the student deferment but I never heard about the test. Talk about pressure.
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08-19-2019, 12:05 PM
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#212
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapr
^^^^^^^
my draft number was 13. Fortunately it was late enough in the war that there was nobody taken that year. I knew about the student deferment but I never heard about the test. Talk about pressure.
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IIRC it was only a one-time thing. I never heard of a repeat during my senior year - heh, heh, I'd already passed my draft physical by then anyway.
Maddening, in addition to the disruption of routine, there were no published criteria for "passing" the test. The 50-year old impression I have was that the whole thing was done "on the fly" because they needed more "boys."
Now of days, many folks routinely take 5 years to complete what was routinely a 4 year degree back in the day. With a maximum of 4 years of deferment, that was not an option. EVERY class was critical. Failing a class meant a chance of being drafted or the necessity of taking 20 hours the next semester - if you had the next year. I got into a serious problem with ONE class during my last semester, senior year. I JUST passed it. Looking back, I'm convinced I was clinically depressed at the time. I didn't yet know that I would have a high draft number to get me through. I simply can not describe the feelings of that semester. Reiterating my point, such anxiety is not even on today's generation's minds. Of course, YMMV
Oh, and for the 3 of you who have never seen it, this is the short version of Alice's Restaurant scene depicting the draft physical (but primarily, the Group W bench episode.) Follow this video back to see the full Alice's Restaurant Massacree.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -
Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
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08-19-2019, 12:06 PM
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#213
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRDave
It is the height of hubris to attribute ALL the good things that have happened to our generation to our "hard work". Seriously - elbows must hurt all the time for all the back-patting we do to ourselves....
ExFlyboy5 below has the ratio correct, I believe - about 80% circumstances beyond our control and 20% the effort of the individual.
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While I agree that circumstances can be beyond your control that enable success or failure in our lives and careers, I believe that 20% is VERY heavily weighted. In other words the 80% circumstantial wont matter if you aren't willing to do your part in the other 20%.
__________________
ER Target = May 2024
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08-19-2019, 12:28 PM
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#214
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffman52
While I agree that circumstances can be beyond your control that enable success or failure in our lives and careers, I believe that 20% is VERY heavily weighted. In other words the 80% circumstantial wont matter if you aren't willing to do your part in the other 20%.
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Actually it's the other way around. No amount of hard work will compensate for circumstances beyond One's knowledge or control. Chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
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08-19-2019, 12:35 PM
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#215
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau
IIRC it was only a one-time thing. I never heard of a repeat during my senior year - heh, heh, I'd already passed my draft physical by then anyway.
Maddening, in addition to the disruption of routine, there were no published criteria for "passing" the test. The 50-year old impression I have was that the whole thing was done "on the fly" because they needed more "boys."
Now of days, many folks routinely take 5 years to complete what was routinely a 4 year degree back in the day. With a maximum of 4 years of deferment, that was not an option. EVERY class was critical. Failing a class meant a chance of being drafted or the necessity of taking 20 hours the next semester - if you had the next year. I got into a serious problem with ONE class during my last semester, senior year. I JUST passed it. Looking back, I'm convinced I was clinically depressed at the time. I didn't yet know that I would have a high draft number to get me through. I simply can not describe the feelings of that semester. Reiterating my point, such anxiety is not even on today's generation's minds. Of course, YMMV
Oh, and for the 3 of you who have never seen it, this is the short version of Alice's Restaurant scene depicting the draft physical (but primarily, the Group W bench episode.) Follow this video back to see the full Alice's Restaurant Massacree.
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Sounds terrible to maybe be drafted.
I took 8 years to finish my undergrad degree due to three overseas deployments, including Iraq and Afghanistan. You think the possibility of going to war causes anxiety? Try getting the notice that you're definitely going to war and still trying to finish up the semester. And it was only worse when I knew I had to do it again, already knowing what it's like over there. We may not have a draft this generation, but millions of us have volunteered to serve and face the anxiety of pending deployments all the time (I leave again in a month for my fourth deployment).
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08-19-2019, 12:43 PM
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#216
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Champaign
Posts: 4,722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtbiker
Sounds terrible to maybe be drafted.
I took 8 years to finish my undergrad degree due to three overseas deployments, including Iraq and Afghanistan. You think the possibility of going to war causes anxiety? Try getting the notice that you're definitely going to war and still trying to finish up the semester. And it was only worse when I knew I had to do it again, already knowing what it's like over there. We may not have a draft this generation, but millions of us have volunteered to serve and face the anxiety of pending deployments all the time (I leave again in a month for my fourth deployment).
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Thank you for your service sounds trite. I cannot imagine that feeling, that pit in the stomach. My daily life ups and downs seem so trivial to what you just described. I will say "Thank You for your service." That statement goes beyond a mere pleasantry.
__________________
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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08-19-2019, 01:32 PM
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#217
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razztazz
Actually it's the other way around. No amount of hard work will compensate for circumstances beyond One's knowledge or control. Chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
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In the extreme yes. But overall, I respectfully disagree. You can work your A$$ off and overcome many circumstances that are working against you. However, unless you are born with a silver spoon (so to say) if you aren't willing to do the work, and make good choices, your bad decisions will outpace your "good luck" or "good circumstances".
__________________
ER Target = May 2024
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08-19-2019, 01:47 PM
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#218
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Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 23,035
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I believe your two views can be harmonized by saying that, in general, hard work is a necessary but not sufficient condition to success.
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
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08-19-2019, 02:06 PM
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#219
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Ohio
Posts: 3,182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtbiker
But one issue with switching companies is you often lose out on a year or two of employee 401K matching when you switch to a new compnay and vesting schedules can take some of that back too. Not to say you shouldn't take better opportunities when they come up, but that is a downside.
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I'm sure this can be a problem for some folks, but I never encountered this. 401(k) vesting was always immediate in my experience.
The problem I did notice was vacation time. You always start back at zero. It just meant I took fewer vacations and saved money (not) doing so ;-)
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08-19-2019, 02:27 PM
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#220
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeirce
I'm sure this can be a problem for some folks, but I never encountered this. 401(k) vesting was always immediate in my experience.
The problem I did notice was vacation time. You always start back at zero. It just meant I took fewer vacations and saved money (not) doing so ;-)
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I've been with four environmental/consulting firms. They all had 401(k) vesting schedules of 3 to 5 years. They want to keep you there, once you are hired! But my previous company also had an ESOP. They had a five-year vesting schedule with that one, and the 'free' annual contributions kept me there as long as they had w@rk for me (17 years).
__________________
Balance in everything.
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