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Old 06-07-2016, 09:59 AM   #81
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I have some hope. If I look at DD, DS, their peers and my nieces and nephews (all in their 20s and early 30s) I think as a group they are much more cognizant of saving for retirement than we were at those ages because they see that some of their parent's generation are ill-prepared financially and since defined benefit plans are a rare thing these days they know they are left to their own devices.

I think for my generation that a lot of people either didn't get the "defined benefit plans are going away you need to save on your own" memo or chose to ignore it and are paying the consequences.
+1 My anecdotal knowledge of 20 somethings (and my 30 year old nephew) is consistent with your thoughts and those of purplesky. I wish I would have had the start that they are having. But, I admittedly am proceeding from a skewed sample....
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:10 AM   #82
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I've been hanging out with a new group of people via a woman I'm dating. They meet nearly every night at one of a few different nearby bar/restaurants. There is a young couple in the group and I heard the husband comment "I can't afford to come here every night and spend a hundred dollars." I"m guessing no one else on the group can afford it either, although pride would prevent them from saying so.
My own romantic interest has a nice house drives a luxury car and mentioned that she has nothing saved for retirement (age 53). I see this time and again and have come to the conclusion that this is normal and saving is abnormal.

I expect my expulsion from the group is in my future. Not my style.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:24 AM   #83
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I've been hanging out with a new group of people via a woman I'm dating. They meet nearly every night at one of a few different nearby bar/restaurants. There is a young couple in the group and I heard the husband comment "I can't afford to come here every night and spend a hundred dollars." I"m guessing no one else on the group can afford it either, although pride would prevent them from saying so.
My own romantic interest has a nice house drives a luxury car and mentioned that she has nothing saved for retirement (age 53). I see this time and again and have come to the conclusion that this is normal and saving is abnormal.

I expect my expulsion from the group is in my future. Not my style.
$100/night? that's expensive entertainment, even in Galveston Bay. Although, I would have to say, it's about the same in The Woodlands, but your new flame may have a sailboat too.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:29 AM   #84
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+1 My anecdotal knowledge of 20 somethings (and my 30 year old nephew) is consistent with your thoughts and those of purplesky. I wish I would have had the start that they are having. But, I admittedly am proceeding from a skewed sample....
I am not familiar with too many millennials (except the ones that are in law school with me...but they are a "special" kind of snow flake ) but I can say that of the folks in my generation (solidly Gen X) that I know are pretty damn stupid with their money. They run the entire spectrum to HS education only to professional...and almost ALL of them spend WAY TOO MUCH money...at least sure seems like it to me.
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:20 PM   #85
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$100/night? that's expensive entertainment, even in Galveston Bay. Although, I would have to say, it's about the same in The Woodlands, but your new flame may have a sailboat too.
Our tab is usually about $75 or so but then again the GF and I are more of wine/beer sippers. She doesn't have a sail boat, it's a power boat, and so do I.
She hasn't used hers since we started dating, always mine.
I'm amused by the attention of the owners and the wait staff in the places we go.
We are treated like royalty. I wonder why.

It'll be fun while it lasts.
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:25 PM   #86
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Part of the problem is likely due to it taking so long to see the point where saving and investing for retirement can pay off. I work in finance and understand compounding but until I crossed the $100,000 assets threshold after 4 years of intense saving I didn't really "see it". And even with the goal of FIRE it was tough motivating myself to stash another $100 away when it barely moves the needle. Of course once you stash $100 away 1,000 or 10,000 times...

Factor in your average American isn't exactly great with math and its easy to see them justify the $4 latte a day because there's "no way they'll ever save a million bucks". Even the MMM and boglehead crowds talk about the point where compounding interest finally starts working for you and how it helps motivate savers. And for most people, if you can't understand how compounding works then how can you stay motivated to get to that point when it may take 30 or 40 years to get there?
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:20 PM   #87
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Part of the problem is likely due to it taking so long to see the point where saving and investing for retirement can pay off. I work in finance and understand compounding but until I crossed the $100,000 assets threshold after 4 years of intense saving I didn't really "see it". And even with the goal of FIRE it was tough motivating myself to stash another $100 away when it barely moves the needle. Of course once you stash $100 away 1,000 or 10,000 times...

Factor in your average American isn't exactly great with math and its easy to see them justify the $4 latte a day because there's "no way they'll ever save a million bucks". Even the MMM and boglehead crowds talk about the point where compounding interest finally starts working for you and how it helps motivate savers. And for most people, if you can't understand how compounding works then how can you stay motivated to get to that point when it may take 30 or 40 years to get there?
Very true. My DS finally has enough ETFs in his Vanguard Roth to see the dividends being paid make a difference. And the market gains.

So he is now addicted to saving. Which is great but he wants me to pay for everything so he can get rich.

Hopefully it will pay off for him down the road.

Its so much easier now with no trade fee ETFs available for the little guy to invest these days than it was 25 years ago.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:38 PM   #88
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Very true. My DS finally has enough ETFs in his Vanguard Roth to see the dividends being paid make a difference. And the market gains.

So he is now addicted to saving. Which is great but he wants me to pay for everything so he can get rich.
You should be proud. He's figured it out - why should he pay for anything if he can get you to, and instead invest the money he saved?
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Old 06-07-2016, 04:13 PM   #89
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Part of the problem is likely due to it taking so long to see the point where saving and investing for retirement can pay off.

Factor in your average American isn't exactly great with math .... And for most people, if you can't understand how compounding works then how can you stay motivated to get to that point when it may take 30 or 40 years to get there?
When I was about 9 or 10 years old, I wanted a baseball glove. My dad drove me to the bank and I withdrew $9 (guessing) for a glove.

I got back to the car with my passbook and was confused because I took out $9 from my savings account yet I still had about the same balance. I thought the bank made a mistake!!

Dad explained "interest" right then and there, adding "that's how rich people do it...they live off their interest". 55 years later I still remember that like it was yesterday and....a life lesson learned.
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Old 06-07-2016, 06:21 PM   #90
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I think you have to split the population into two, the $18/hr group which has a family to raise in which they may save a little 3%, but much of the "extra" is really going to keeping a working vehicle, allowing the kids to be in a sport or take a class and trying to squeeze out some money to take the kids on vacation, even camping costs money and that doesn't account for any day care or after school programs you have to put them in because you have a job.. so having 1-3% to put away in retirement is a miracle until they grow up and then you play catchup if you can.

Those making more than that fall into the other category where yeh, there is a lot of $4 lattes.. oh I got tickets the game or concert(really at $135/ticket??) or I'm renting a spot on the lake for the summer for $3500/spot and of course I need a boat and a large vehicle to pull the boat.. and a camper... most of my family falls into that bucket, lower middle class that don't have $2k in their savings account, maybe $10k in a 401k but have a host of vehicles in the yard and want to know why I don't split season tickets with them..

I try not to know, its hard not to completely lose it.. especially since when my sister got divorced she let me know how her husbands vehicles (which I couldn't figure out how he could afford) were financed to the tune of $630/month. OMG .. ARE YOU FRICKEN KIDDING ME.. imagine $630/month invested .. and now that she is divorced, she lives on half what she did before and now magically has money to invest...go figure...when your cash flow isn't 100% taken up by some stupid truck/motorcycle/fourwheeler/snowmobile.
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Old 06-14-2016, 04:00 PM   #91
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The issue is that people that don't have the income to really afford a $4 latte (which is actually closer to $6 at Starbucks) have neither the desire nor the education of realization to deny themselves now, for the betterment of a nebulous future self. They would have no idea on earth where or how to invest $100 a month, and be smart enough to keep it earning and compounding for 30 years through highs and lows. IF they ever got even 20k saved, the first time there was a market downfall, and it went to $12k they would sell in a heartbeat to avoid "losing it all". I've seen the same issue with intelligent, cognizant, well earning people. To expect it of people that think $18/mo to live on is fine, because its too difficult or too much effort to improve your education and job by moving or whatever is required, is just not realistic.. Because in their minds, they are surrounded by plenty of friends and family in the exact same same situation and THAT gives them a feeling of security because surely "we can't all be wrong and never get to retire, like on TV". By avoiding applying serious thought to the reality of their situation, they can lead an enjoyable enough life while working..

The problem is not everyone can be a professional or earn $100k+ a year. But anyone is allowed to ACT like they are able to live making much more thanks to easy credit, leasing, etc. It will just be a an ugly reality when retirement time comes....and they can't retire.

The quoted averages saved are nonsense. There are distinct groups: those with nothing saved, those will little saved but earning and saving, and those that have saved. The average income of 1 person that makes a million a year and 99 that make 20k a year is about $30k a year. The current wealth breakdown in the US is very roughly like that. So the millionaire says nothing because he doesn't want anyone to know he's rich and the other 99 want to know who's making 50% more than they do...
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Old 06-14-2016, 06:21 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Olbidness View Post
I've been hanging out with a new group of people via a woman I'm dating. They meet nearly every night at one of a few different nearby bar/restaurants. There is a young couple in the group and I heard the husband comment "I can't afford to come here every night and spend a hundred dollars." I"m guessing no one else on the group can afford it either, although pride would prevent them from saying so.
My own romantic interest has a nice house drives a luxury car and mentioned that she has nothing saved for retirement (age 53). I see this time and again and have come to the conclusion that this is normal and saving is abnormal.

I expect my expulsion from the group is in my future. Not my style.
I noticed this too with 25 yr olds, they would go to a restaurant/bar to celebrate somebodies birthday. Instead of going to somebodies house.

It's not like a little kids birthday.
At age 25 they are going to eat, drink, talk, ignore the background music, some will get drunk.
They didn't see it could cost $10 or $100 for the night, it was just a choice/habit.
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Old 06-14-2016, 08:18 PM   #93
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Ve
Hopefully it will pay off for him down the road.

Its so much easier now with no trade fee ETFs available for the little guy to invest these days than it was 25 years ago.
And that's why I think a lot of the criticism of millennials is a bunch of hogwash
I love you guys but i swear it seems everyone here was/is financial geniuses at 13.

Now I totally admit I guess I am the black sheep of this family, no at 22 I didn't have 50K in a vanguard ETF and neither do my kids age 22 and 25.

I admit, I encourage my kids to celebrate their birthday. humm it only comes around once a year. so yes, i don't mind if take a date out for her birthday and go see a Broadway play.

seriously are we now denying our kids even celebrating their bdays because they have to retire in 30 years

Generally we've taught them the 10% rule. they have to save 10%, give 10% to the "house", and 10% to church after that I do hope they enjoy themselves.

So let me ask those with young adults? are they never allowed to go to a concert because of the price? how about a ballgame?

Is the entire point of being young simply to work because you'll be old soon?

My oldest son 24 spent last summer as a camp counselor in a camp designed for Aspberger kids ( a form of Autisum), yep he blew a lot of his meager salary but since this was his first time on his own, the sense of accomplishment and memories he has made I think will be worth more than the "compounded" interest in 20 years.

My youngest just blew 1/2 his savings on a guitar so we made a deal, he buys the instrument I'll spring for the lessons. Now I don't know how long this will last, maybe he has some ability maybe he'll flame out but I think it's worth his 600 bucks.
like I said, it seems I'm the odd duck here. I guess the millennials I know (my sons, my nephews and a few coworkers) are pretty normal young adults. they make some good choices, they make some bad choice
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Old 06-14-2016, 08:21 PM   #94
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And that's why I think a lot of the criticism of millennials is a bunch of hogwash
I love you guys but i swear it seems everyone here was/is financial geniuses at 13.
Really? I didn't have anything saved until I was in my 30's.
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Old 06-14-2016, 08:28 PM   #95
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I know a lot of people who never question what something costs but instead question how they will pay for it.

I've never understood that mindset.
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Old 06-14-2016, 08:32 PM   #96
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Really? I didn't have anything saved until I was in my 30's.
that's my point!! why the "millennial" hate.
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Old 06-14-2016, 08:50 PM   #97
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Can't add much to this discussion, other than to say that, along with the retirement shortfall, there seem to be an increasing view that part of the issue is that some of us have saved "too much" for retirement. I thought only DW's relatives thought like that. Somehow our family not having the financial issues they have - in their case mostly brought on from their actions - is a problem to them. One of DW's sisters recently asked her why didn't DW and I talk about money, we must be hiding something from the family for selfish purposes.
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:01 PM   #98
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that's my point!! why the "millennial" hate.
I have 8 nephews and a niece, all between 20 and 32 years old. They are all across the board in terms of making their way in the world. I would not follow the path that some of them are on, but then I didn't follow the path trodden by many of my own generation. I expect they'll all turn out roughly the same as me and the young wife, our siblings and our cousins -- some rich, some poor and some in between.
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:03 PM   #99
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that's my point!! why the "millennial" hate.
I don't hate 'em - I just want them to get the hell off my lawn!
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:42 PM   #100
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I love you guys but i swear it seems everyone here was/is financial geniuses at 13.
I wish I was!

Heck, I was flat broke and had an attorney (s) bill for $80K in 1992 after a bad California divorce. I moved to Texas, got a job, got an apartment and rented furniture all at the age of 49.

Not all of us here were born with silver spoons in our mouths or went to Harvard to get an MBA at 22.
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