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Old 06-14-2016, 09:50 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by marko View Post
When I was about 9 or 10 years old, I wanted a baseball glove. My dad drove me to the bank and I withdrew $9 (guessing) for a glove.

I got back to the car with my passbook and was confused because I took out $9 from my savings account yet I still had about the same balance. I thought the bank made a mistake!!

Dad explained "interest" right then and there, adding "that's how rich people do it...they live off their interest". 55 years later I still remember that like it was yesterday and....a life lesson learned.
I had some similar experiences when I was 10 - 15 years old.

The first was mowing yards and saving much of my money - it was surprising to me how quickly I was able to accumulate money in my credit union account.

The second was when my father suggested I loan a family friend $500 for 3 months. The friend needed a short term loan for a small business venture. The friend had asked my father for the loan and apparently my father suggested the friend borrow the money from me. I figured out how the loan was to be handled - I chose a balloon payment - and made a simple contract that both parties signed.

The third was as a teenager when my father hand-carried mail from the post office to several older widows in our very small town. One widow in particular received dividend payments throughout the year and she lived on those to a great extent. This made a very big impression on me. DW had a similar experience with friends of her family.

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And that's why I think a lot of the criticism of millennials is a bunch of hogwash
I love you guys but i swear it seems everyone here was/is financial geniuses at 13.

Now I totally admit I guess I am the black sheep of this family, no at 22 I didn't have 50K in a vanguard ETF and neither do my kids age 22 and 25.

I admit, I encourage my kids to celebrate their birthday. humm it only comes around once a year. so yes, i don't mind if take a date out for her birthday and go see a Broadway play.

seriously are we now denying our kids even celebrating their bdays because they have to retire in 30 years

Generally we've taught them the 10% rule. they have to save 10%, give 10% to the "house", and 10% to church after that I do hope they enjoy themselves.

So let me ask those with young adults? are they never allowed to go to a concert because of the price? how about a ballgame?

Is the entire point of being young simply to work because you'll be old soon?

My oldest son 24 spent last summer as a camp counselor in a camp designed for Aspberger kids ( a form of Autisum), yep he blew a lot of his meager salary but since this was his first time on his own, the sense of accomplishment and memories he has made I think will be worth more than the "compounded" interest in 20 years.

My youngest just blew 1/2 his savings on a guitar so we made a deal, he buys the instrument I'll spring for the lessons. Now I don't know how long this will last, maybe he has some ability maybe he'll flame out but I think it's worth his 600 bucks.
like I said, it seems I'm the odd duck here. I guess the millennials I know (my sons, my nephews and a few coworkers) are pretty normal young adults. they make some good choices, they make some bad choice
I wasn't a financial expert and age 13 and I only play a CFP on TV (lol!). Seriously, the formative experiences I had at an early age definitely put me on a solid financial track.

I don't begrudge you and your children living it up once in a while but these are choices you make during your life (and theirs). There's no harm in buying things and experiencing things in our lives that enrich our experiences here on earth. However, money provides options - and if money is always spent (or allocated) on something other than savings and investments it's not difficult to wonder why there is more month than money.
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Old 06-14-2016, 11:59 PM   #102
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Missed my point as was too subtle I guess.

12 friends is 12 birthdays.
Attend 12 birthdays at a bar cost for Joe is: 12 * 100 = $1,200 /yr.
Attend 12 birthdays at house with bring a bottle cost for Joe is: 12 * 10 + ($200 for Joe holding the party burgs/chips/snacks) = $320 /yr.

Now nobody is really thinking that the difference over 20 yrs ($17,600 without interest) would mean retirement or not, but it points to the thinking and habits.

The same group of 12 friends that routinely go to a bar because it's somebodies birthday probably go every weekend because it's Saturday or some other reason.

Then they don't always pay off the credit card in full each month because spending that much on bar drinking uses up all their available cash.
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Old 06-15-2016, 05:11 AM   #103
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Missed my point as was too subtle I guess.

12 friends is 12 birthdays.
Attend 12 birthdays at a bar cost for Joe is: 12 * 100 = $1,200 /yr.
Attend 12 birthdays at house with bring a bottle cost for Joe is: 12 * 10 + ($200 for Joe holding the party burgs/chips/snacks) = $320 /yr.

Now nobody is really thinking that the difference over 20 yrs ($17,600 without interest) would mean retirement or not, but it points to the thinking and habits.

The same group of 12 friends that routine experianly go to a bar because it's somebodies birthday probably go every weekend because it's Saturday or some other reason.

Then they don't always pay off the credit card in full each month because spending that much on bar drinking uses up all their available cash.
Joe and his friends have a drinking problem not a money problem.

Understanding is not the issue, I think people here have brought into the stereotype of the millennials. you know they are all "lazy, entitled, spend thrifts"
ok, I must know different 20 somethings, again my experience is with mostly my kids and relatives. Oh and I showed 6 of them this post and every one of them said you must have a nice life that allows you to drop 100 a night on anything.

1) they aren't going to the bar every weekend because most of them have jobs requiring them to work on the weekend

2) My son and nephews are all mid 20, not one of them have 400 a month disposable income. most are recent college graduates, now unlike everyone here, none are engineers so they are not making 100K. My youngest is taking the test for the Philly fire dept, not because he has any burning (excuse the pun) to be a fireman but because it's one of the last jobs that still offer great benefits and a pension. even their starting salary is only in the low 40's

3)let's see last weekend my youngest worked Friday and Saturday. Saturday night he and his two friends watched the nba finals. total cost 20 bucks. they brought pizza, wings and drank up my beer and soda. IMO this is more reality then hanging out at the bar every weekend.

4)One of my kids bday is in November, I got him 4 tickets to Hamilton (whew, Broadway prices are insane) as a gift. He can pick his guest. knowing my sons, they'll go out to get Pizza. So maybe, maybe the other three will spend a c-note then.

5) Student loans. enough said

I definitely understood your assumption, I just think it's very limited
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Old 06-15-2016, 05:20 AM   #104
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...I think people here have brought into the stereotype of the millennials.
bclover, some here apparently have a stereotypical view of millenials but please don't paint everyone on this forum with the same brush. We are individuals and don't all have the same opinion when it comes to our view of younger generations. Heck, some many of those whippersnappers are great kids!
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:19 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Sunset View Post
Missed my point as was too subtle I guess.

12 friends is 12 birthdays.
Attend 12 birthdays at a bar cost for Joe is: 12 * 100 = $1,200 /yr.
Attend 12 birthdays at house with bring a bottle cost for Joe is: 12 * 10 + ($200 for Joe holding the party burgs/chips/snacks) = $320 /yr.

Now nobody is really thinking that the difference over 20 yrs ($17,600 without interest) would mean retirement or not, but it points to the thinking and habits.

The same group of 12 friends that routinely go to a bar because it's somebodies birthday probably go every weekend because it's Saturday or some other reason.

Then they don't always pay off the credit card in full each month because spending that much on bar drinking uses up all their available cash.

As a millennial, I can attest that it's true that many will do this on a regular basis. With my group of friends the amount was less per night ($50-70 including dinner) but we did this at least two nights each week. Yes, it was expensive. As a non-drinker I never really understood why it was so much better to have a scotch at the bar vs at home but my friends assured me it was an important difference.

That being said, it definitely didn't last 20 years. As soon as the kids start arriving, the nights out drop off dramatically. I'd say for my group of friends we probably had five golden carefree years of sufficient income + adequate control over our time....max. For those that haven't had kids, we also slowed down due to a) busier work schedules b) having less friends available for nights out c) changing priorities (including money priorities) and d) being older in general. It's a lot harder to rage at 32 than at 22! So I wouldn't worry. As bclover indicates, it's probably not a millennial thing - it's probably just 22 year olds being 22. There is a TED Talk on this actually, about how we should stop assuming Millennials will be this way their entire lives because every generation has had the experience of acting one way at 22 and then acting differently 20 years later.
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:33 AM   #106
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bclover, some here apparently have a stereotypical view of millenials but please don't paint everyone on this forum with the same brush. We are individuals and don't all have the same opinion when it comes to our view of younger generations. Heck, some many of those whippersnappers are great kids!
Noted,
I always try to say that my experience comes from the very very limited experience. Maybe 12 max 20 somethings.

the hardest thing I see with my sons crowd is not that they are living la vida loca, lol any loca in my kids life is definitely on my dime but rather they can't "see" that far ahead.

whenever I talk about "retirement" they usually tell me "mind if I live a life first mom"

aaah to be young again !!
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The Retirement saving shortfall tidal wave
Old 06-15-2016, 06:33 AM   #107
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The Retirement saving shortfall tidal wave

I don't have a viewpoint on millennials I suspect they are all different. Yesterday she (early twenty something colleague) came up to me and wanted to talk about real estate investments... I said sure -during our conversation she told me she owed more than $100k in student loans and the payment was $1,400 a month and it is "killing her" More than my first house payment .

Some do face some real challenges.

Edit: I tend to see very hard working kids ... We only hire from select colleges and their GPAs have to be very impressive...
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:40 AM   #108
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So I wouldn't worry. As bclover indicates, it's probably not a millennial thing - it's probably just 22 year olds being 22. There is a TED Talk on this actually, about how we should stop assuming Millennials will be this way their entire lives because every generation has had the experience of acting one way at 22 and then acting differently 20 years later.
lol,

whew and thank God for that!! I would post of picture of myself in my 20's but then I would have to blow up your laptop. i was a hot mess. now I didn't have cc debt mainly because I grew up in a time and family where you just didn't use them but i was a typical 22 year old in NYC. I wanted an apartment, preferably in Manhattan, I wanted a hot basketball player for a boyfriend and a great job.

lol, I got a studio apartment in Harlem above a strip joint with 2 other gals and a job substitute teaching. i did not have anywhere close to 10K in investments. I had no investments, we were still using old passport savings accounts
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:58 AM   #109
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Getting back to the original post: IMO, "retirement" is not, nor should it be considered, an inalienable right of being a US citizen. It is something that, unless you are a lucky heir, must be earned. Especially a "comfortable" retirement.
It is earned, bought, and paid for over many years, by making specific decisions, one upon another, layer after layer, over decades.
It can start by deciding pretty early in life whether you want to position yourself for a job that makes enough money to provide a decent lifestyle that also allows for some money put aside, or whether you want to spend your entire life making a lower wage, which will make retirement more challenging.
Other decision we make: Do I have kids now? Later? How many? Do I pay my retirement first, and fund my lifestyle AFTER that, even if it means "basic" cable, "basic" phone, NOT going to bars or restaurants as often as some of my friends go? Do I NOT buy the latte, the pedicure, etc etc etc.

the tone of many of these articles suggest to me that they are operating from an initial assumption, with which I strongly disagree, and that is that a comfortable retirement is an essential right of all Americans, regardless of how we live our lives. And since some Americans clearly aren't going to have this, this is a "problem" which must be addressed.

If folks spend their lives making decisions that make retirement impossible, I won't lose any sleep over the thought of them having to work until they simply can't, anymore.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:10 AM   #110
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(Oh, and +1 to the OP's comment about cigarettes. I wonder how much of a correlation there is between cigarette smoking and lack of retirement savings...)
Maybe it's a correlation to a third factor like intelligence? All this debate about how the majority screw up doesn't interest me very much. Everybody can't be as smart, disciplined, forward thinking, lucky, as we are. Let's just be thankful we are this way.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:12 AM   #111
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Getting back to the original post: IMO, "retirement" is not, nor should it be considered, an inalienable right of being a US citizen. It is something that, unless you are a lucky heir, must be earned. Especially a "comfortable" retirement.
It is earned, bought, and paid for over many years, by making specific decisions, one upon another, layer after layer, over decades.
It can start by deciding pretty early in life whether you want to position yourself for a job that makes enough money to provide a decent lifestyle that also allows for some money put aside, or whether you want to spend your entire life making a lower wage, which will make retirement more challenging.
Other decision we make: Do I have kids now? Later? How many? Do I pay my retirement first, and fund my lifestyle AFTER that, even if it means "basic" cable, "basic" phone, NOT going to bars or restaurants as often as some of my friends go? Do I NOT buy the latte, the pedicure, etc etc etc.

the tone of many of these articles suggest to me that they are operating from an initial assumption, with which I strongly disagree, and that is that a comfortable retirement is an essential right of all Americans, regardless of how we live our lives. And since some Americans clearly aren't going to have this, this is a "problem" which must be addressed.

If folks spend their lives making decisions that make retirement impossible, I won't lose any sleep over the thought of them having to work until they simply can't, anymore.
Good post. I would change a small item about having kids. Being childfree (i.e. not wanting or having any kids) should be included more strongly in your list of choices. While I knew I would be childfree (at age 20) many years before being an early retiree appeared on the horizon, I would surely suggest it as a way to improve one's finances and being able to save for retirement and, in my case, being able to retire early. Being a non-smoker is also a good idea, not just for one's own personal health, but to improve one's financial health. I've seen many posts in this forum over the years with calculations of how much someone could save for retirement simply by not smoking. It's pretty amazing.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:16 AM   #112
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We are individuals and don't all have the same opinion when it comes to our view of younger generations. Heck, some many of those whippersnappers are great kids!
Agree ,the millennials I know are generally hard working, impressive kids. At least as impressive as my friends and I were at the same age. Painting generations with such a broad general brush seems bogus to me. Trying to extrapolate a few cases across millions of people is not valid.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:29 AM   #113
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Good post. I would change a small item about having kids. Being childfree (i.e. not wanting or having any kids) should be included more strongly in your list of choices. While I knew I would be childfree (at age 20) many years before being an early retiree appeared on the horizon, I would surely suggest it as a way to improve one's finances and being able to save for retirement and, in my case, being able to retire early. Being a non-smoker is also a good idea, not just for one's own personal health, but to improve one's financial health. I've seen many posts in this forum over the years with calculations of how much someone could save for retirement simply by not smoking. It's pretty amazing.
Smoking is a biggie. Expensive, destructive, and addictive. Here is one of my favorite Calvin&Hobbes strips. My favorite is the line about seeming like an easy habit to break.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:44 AM   #114
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that's my point!! why the "millennial" hate.

For me it's guilt..

I have two boys ages 19 and 16 and they are I guess millennials. I shake my head in disbelief at times due to their lack of gumption, candor, motivation and their short sited decisions. They are far far far from being adults. I can see how they are today and how I was at their age and it's night and day different. I truly worry about them launching .before their mid 20s now ( I hope).

There is not the urgency that we had at same age to grow up and be independent. They are ... Scared. Timid and far too Comfortable...

My kids- for a lot of reasons they have not held real jobs (my fault, I told the to focus on school work and grades). So they study a bit (useless humanities topics) and get ok grades but they are not headed in any real direction that will remotely turn into a job down day at a reasonable wage let alone a career.

They've been "pampered" in the realities of life - not so much materialistic stuff but they are comfortable. Full belly every day a free roof over their heads courtesy of mom and dad. Those kids around them are languishing and slow to launch so suddenly that becomes normal ... It was a big deal that my kids got drivers licenses at 16. Almost none of their friends wanted to drive. For us, it was get your drivers license the second we could apply.

Most have no freaking idea what it takes to make a go of things in the real world. I don't blame them ... I'm their dad. I accept the blame.

I hear that it's harder today for kids to launch .... It's because we as parents have made it harder. We've not applied enough tough love, I guess.

By comparison, for my generation : At 19 I had held a part time job for 4 years. I was not alone ... I was a mostly A student too. Most around me were same. Summer's were working and part time classes. We paid for our own car insurance and gas money, and helped with tuition. At 21 I finished college as did my wife to be and both landed full time jobs before graduating ..in a city far from family... Had to make sacrifices. At 24 I got married and 27 became a Dad. Bought a house, Hit sizable NW @ 31, FIRED at 45 and That's my view of average/normal.

Where are we going wrong with the younger generation. It's squarely on our shoulders ... We are the educators. The mentors. The advisors ... Can't really blame them ...

Or maybe we should blame them or at least hold them more accountable.

Definitely this is the hardest age/ stage of parenting - I had no idea how tough it would be.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:50 AM   #115
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All this talk about Millennials is sure making the oldsters look like a bunch of curmudgeons.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:50 AM   #116
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the tone of many of these articles suggest to me that they are operating from an initial assumption, with which I strongly disagree, and that is that a comfortable retirement is an essential right of all Americans, regardless of how we live our lives. And since some Americans clearly aren't going to have this, this is a "problem" which must be addressed.

If folks spend their lives making decisions that make retirement impossible, I won't lose any sleep over the thought of them having to work until they simply can't, anymore.

I'll lose sleep - because at the end of the day it's a zero sum game. Someone is going to have to pay the freight.. Especially for the ones who can't work later in life.

Retirement as a concept is very much 20th and 21st century Prior to the 1930s, most people worked until they died or were simply unable to work any longer and then moved in with kids. They also didn't live as long ..

Retirement is a made-inHollywood concept like a Hallmark holiday. Sadly the expectations are being set in America now, that everyone is entitled to partake.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:04 AM   #117
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For me it's guilt..

I have two boys ages 19 and 16 and they are I guess millennials. I shake my head in disbelief at times due to their lack of gumption, candor, motivation and their short sited decisions. They are far far far from being adults. I can see how they are today and how I was at their age and it's night and day different. I truly worry about them launching .before their mid 20s now ( I hope).

There is not the urgency that we had at same age to grow up and be independent. They are ... Scared. Timid and far too Comfortable...

My kids- for a lot of reasons they have not held real jobs (my fault, I told the to focus on school work and grades). So they study a bit (useless humanities topics) and get ok grades but they are not headed in any real direction that will remotely turn into a job down day at a reasonable wage let alone a career.

They've been "pampered" in the realities of life - not so much materialistic stuff but they are comfortable. Full belly every day a free roof over their heads courtesy of mom and dad. Those kids around them are languishing and slow to launch so suddenly that becomes normal ... It was a big deal that my kids got drivers licenses at 16. Almost none of their friends wanted to drive. For us, it was get your drivers license the second we could apply.

Most have no freaking idea what it takes to make a go of things in the real world. I don't blame them ... I'm their dad. I accept the blame.

I hear that it's harder today for kids to launch .... It's because we as parents have made it harder. We've not applied enough tough love, I guess.

By comparison, for my generation : At 19 I had held a part time job for 4 years. I was not alone ... I was a mostly A student too. Most around me were same. Summer's were working and part time classes. We paid for our own car insurance and gas money, and helped with tuition. At 21 I finished college as did my wife to be and both landed full time jobs before graduating ..in a city far from family... Had to make sacrifices. At 24 I got married and 27 became a Dad. Bought a house, Hit sizable NW @ 31, FIRED at 45 and That's my view of average/normal.

Where are we going wrong with the younger generation. It's squarely on our shoulders ... We are the educators. The mentors. The advisors ... Can't really blame them ...

Or maybe we should blame them or at least hold them more accountable.

Definitely this is the hardest age/ stage of parenting - I had no idea how tough it would be.
So you blame yourself for "enabling" them. The next parenting test will come when they leave home and find out that "life is hard", and want to come back home. You will have a choice then, to stop the "enabling", or to continue it.

Good luck with that one.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:38 AM   #118
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Stereotyping is never a good idea; everyone's different yet sometimes making assumptions about groups when based on legitimate observation can be legitimate. There are always stark exceptions to averages. Anyway.

As to the right to a comfortable retirement, or any at all, I agree there is none. However, it's troubling that as life expectancy has grown and medical advances have grown, a lot of people will be living well past their ability to "earn a living." Hence the social problem of how to provide for these people will grow for those who rigorously saved for themselves. Saw that with MIL who ended up under our roof and financial wings for her last 8 years. So I don't think we as a society can just turn our back on what I'll call "retirement ignorance" as someone else's issue. But I'll admit I have no answers.

Along the lines of "kids these days".... We live below our means in a paid off house surrounded by homes of 2-300k. I've not seen one of the teenagers EVER cut grass or do any of what I'd call work around the area, nor am I aware of them having any kind of jobs (and I do converse with the parents). I asked one parent once if his kid could cut our grass while we traveled, and only got a laugh and a no, not (name)! Contrast that to my teen years when I was always looking for work, spent two summers saving the $300 or so for my next guitar...will never forget the Gibson ES335 TDC.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:44 AM   #119
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Part of the problem is likely due to it taking so long to see the point where saving and investing for retirement can pay off.
Or it may be that no one in the USA will ever starve. Everyone will have food and shelter, although it may not be ideal. Healthcare will always available, regardless for your income. You can life a life of leisure, without working at all.

The only benefit that saving for retirement has is to have a few additional choices at the end of life. If you don't make it to a decent retirement, it was all for naught.

It's a similar to collecting Social Security at 62 or 70. Why save for something that may never happen? Have fun now.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:15 AM   #120
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