The “Safe Withdrawal Rate” May Be Changing

I think it's useful to at least consider the possibility that the real anomaly has been the US equity performance for the 20th century.

That has always been my primary concern. And so I think you have to compensate by managing to a low withdrawal rate, based on a budget with a healthy amount of spending flexibility. Maintaining professional contacts and job skills with part-time freelance assignments is not a bad idea either.
 
They didn't assume no taxes. They assumed that taxes would be paid out of the $47K withdrawal---just like everything else.
 
That has always been my primary concern. And so I think you have to compensate by managing to a low withdrawal rate, based on a budget with a healthy amount of spending flexibility. Maintaining professional contacts and job skills with part-time freelance assignments is not a bad idea either.
Well - that last sentence. I can't do that! I can't enjoy retirement if I am always looking over my shoulder and feel that I have to devote some time to keeping up career skills.

If I find myself destitute for some reason, I will truly have to start over. New skills and all. Fortunately I have learned enough new stuff that if I really had to, I could probably figure out a way to get by..... It would just not have anything to do with my old job and I'm sure pay considerably less.

Audrey
 
That's probably true, and I really have to salute anyone who can happily survive on 2% of their portfolio.
Heck, that will be us (in the future - eight years from now).

Even though our current rate of withdrawl is in excess of 4% (and will raise to around 10% in the future) we still have many "income sources" still coming on-line in that eight year period (e.g. SS, pensions, etc, none of which we are currently drawing).

And yes, our withdrawl rate will drop below 2% at age 70 (when my SS starts) and dosen't exceed 4% till well after age 100 - the end of our forecast period.

4% may be a guide, but it dosen't work for those who retire early, before all their income sources are available...
 
Well - that last sentence. I can't do that! I can't enjoy retirement if I am always looking over my shoulder and feel that I have to devote some time to keeping up career skills.
+1 I did a few projects to keep in touch my first year out but I have done my last paid work.
 
Change is interesting. I'm really enjoying reading the "new outlooks" prevalent on this board today vs. those when I first joined. At that earlier time, discussions seemed to center more on the risk of leaving excessive money behind at death rather than on running out of money. How could we spend more during our early years of retirement without increasing the risk of portfolio failure?

A related observation...... My own view is that I'm expecting more variability in FIRE portfolio returns and in inflation in the future than historical data would suggest. This will lead to folks wondering how they wound up with much more or less than planned after 2 - 3 decades of withdrawals. Few will actually see "average" projected results. Those using historical "averages" to project future results will develop a new, indepth understanding of "variance!"

Only living through the time and making the withdrawal and investment decisions will tell the actual story. Projections? Forecasts? Naaaaah. Fun to discuss but I don't hear any layers being peeled off this mystery, either by ourselves or by the pundits.
 
I'm really enjoying reading the "new outlooks" prevalent on this board today vs. those when I first joined. At that earlier time, discussions seemed to center more on the risk of leaving excessive money behind at death rather than on running out of money. How could we spend more during our early years of retirement without increasing the risk of portfolio failure?

My guess is that if you go back and look at those old posts, what you'll find is that those people who advocated stretching to meet an aggressive retirement goal; using complicated formulas to arrive at higher withdrawal rates; using 100% equities; maybe borrowing against the house to invest even more, etc. etc. . . . well, I'm guessing those folks aren't posting any more because they're too busy working. Meanwhile, those of us who advocated caution back then are still here saying the same thing today.
 
Well - that last sentence. I can't do that! I can't enjoy retirement if I am always looking over my shoulder and feel that I have to devote some time to keeping up career skills.

If I find myself destitute for some reason, I will truly have to start over. New skills and all.

No reason it has to be in the same field. My wife does freelance writing assignments part time. I might dip into that a little myself. It's something I could do a couple times a year, just to make contacts and a little extra coin. And then if we needed to, for one reason or another, it would be simple enough to rev that up to a full-time thing. Starting from scratch, though, would take several years to start making a reliable income.

60 years is a long time to go without earning an income or receiving a pension. And although our WR is well below what is considered 'safe', I still feel better having a belt to go along with my suspenders.
 
My guess is that if you go back and look at those old posts, what you'll find is that those people who advocated stretching to meet an aggressive retirement goal; using complicated formulas to arrive at higher withdrawal rates; using 100% equities; maybe borrowing against the house to invest even more, etc. etc. . . . well, I'm guessing those folks aren't posting any more because they're too busy working. Meanwhile, those of us who advocated caution back then are still here saying the same thing today.

No. Actually just the opposite of your guess. These were folks who advocated conservative investments and retirement budgets with lots of cushion. They seemed to have a better grasp of the concept of variability in outcomes that some today. Therefore they recognized that a plan which was (based on FireCalc Testing using historical data) projected to be 95% successful included many outcomes where an uncomfortably large residual portfolio was left. That is, spending was held back during retirement only to result in large residuals being left at death.

So, the question was how could we reduce variability, even at the cost of lower projected returns, so a plan could provide an outcome of zero or few failures but allow you to spend keeping residual end portfolios at a miniumum.

Having some portion of your portfolio in an annuity was frequently suggested, and would work, but this solution always led to "interesting" discussions and back and forth by the anti-annuity gang.

A conservative plan that results in a low probability of failure also results in a high probability of large amounts of residual money at death according to the hundreds of FireCalc output graphs I've pondered. That's what the discussions were about.

edit: BTW, didn't mean to say your guess was "wrong." I'm sure there were folks with that POV posting as well. Those just aren't the folks I'm referring to.
 
So, the question was how could we reduce variability, even at the cost of lower projected returns, so a plan could provide an outcome of zero or few failures but allow you to spend keeping residual end portfolios at a miniumum.

Having some portion of your portfolio in an annuity was frequently suggested, and would work, but this solution always led to "interesting" discussions and back and forth by the anti-annuity gang.

A conservative plan that results in a low probability of failure also results in a high probability of large amounts of residual money at death according to the hundreds of FireCalc output graphs I've pondered. That's what the discussions were about.

As you point out, some threads addressed this problem- that because of variability of returns, of sequences of returns, and of longevity, individuals will tend to either have too little at some point (too little capital or too little income), or have a suplus left late in the game. Usually these threads received a lot of blowback. Often, I felt, because the concepts were misunderstood. But there must be something else too. Mostly I think that the LBYM, I do things my way bent that is typical of board members including me just tends to be hostile to giving up any control.

Here is a link to William Sharpe's paper which was given in a recent thread.

Ha

http://www.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/retecon/4percent.pdf
 
Having some portion of your portfolio in an annuity was frequently suggested, and would work, but this solution always led to "interesting" discussions and back and forth by the anti-annuity gang.
Hey, let's talk about that (yes, I do have an SPIA :LOL: )...
 
Heretical comment follows.

I think it's useful to at least consider the possibility that the real anomaly has been the US equity performance for the 20th century. That's the data set that FIRECalc and most other simulations are based on, explicitly or implicitly. When we consider the US geopolitical preeminence and the economic boom that resulted, particularly since WW-II, it's quite easy to argue that this data set (this particular nation in these particular years) is really the likely anomaly. The same holds true, to a lesser extent, for the US business environment and conditions favoring US economic expansion over the last century--they were certainly unusually good when considered in the entire context of human history. So, when someone says that the future years are really going to be "different this time," we should ask if they mean "different from the recent very anomalous 'good years' in this one particular country" (7-10% PA total returns) or "different from what most developed countries in the modern age have experienced" (2-3% total returns)? Put another way--it's very possible that it really was "different this time" for the last century, and now we're going to experience the "normality" most countries have experienced.

By the same token, technological advances or even advances in our understanding of how economic systems function might result in even higher growth rates than those recently experienced. Or, an asteroid could hit us. We don't know

If a person is ever going to retire, they have to make some assumptions. But (IMO) anybody believing they can set up a fixed 40 year ironclad SWR based on history is fooling themselves. Anyone who comes away from FIRECALC believing there's a meaningful difference going forward between a portfolio allocation/withdrawal rate that generates an 80% historic survival rate and one that generates a 95% survival rate might be overestimating the power and precision of the tools and underlying data in forecasting the future.

What's the solution? I don't know. My particular answer has been:
- Continue to work and squirrel away money longer than "the data" says I need to. Quitting work now and possibly returning to the work force in 5-10 years is not a good answer for me for several reasons. But, I downshifted into work that is more psychologically sustainable.
- Plan to take a year-end percentage rather than a fixed percentage adjusted for inflation. I'm going to use 3.0 - 3.5% at first.
- Plan to be flexible. Monitor the buying power of my portfolio and make adjustments if it starts to slip. Adjustments would include lower annual withdrawals and taking more risk. If the buying power climbs, we'll raise withdrawals and/or reduce the risk we take in our portfolio ("risk" being broadly defined: due not only to volatility, but also from higher inflation, long-term reduced equity returns going forward, etc. Figuring out how to do this might be my new "career").

Sorry, no huge revelations in the foregoing observations. We're all in "measure with micrometer, mark it with a grease pencil, cut with an axe" territory, and what we're measuring is a blob of Jello. And the world going forward might be pudding. (italics added)
When I read your comment, my first reaction was: "I could agree with this if we were talking about a Monte Carlo simulation, but with FIRECalc, a 95% success rate means that your portfolio would have survived what actually happened, 95% of the time." It occurred to me later that if the historical data only cover part of the spectrum of potential results, there could be market downturns that have no precedent in the available data. FIRECalc shows that your portfolio would have survived the Great Depression, the mid-century bear market, 1970's inflation, the Tech Wreck, and the Market Meltdown of 2008—great! But maybe Mr Market has bigger and blacker swans than those, in store for us in the future. Is that why you say there's no meaningful difference, between 80% success and 95%?
 
My guess is that if you go back and look at those old posts, what you'll find is that those people who advocated stretching to meet an aggressive retirement goal; using complicated formulas to arrive at higher withdrawal rates; using 100% equities; maybe borrowing against the house to invest even more, etc. etc. . . . well, I'm guessing those folks aren't posting any more because they're too busy working. Meanwhile, those of us who advocated caution back then are still here saying the same thing today.

Hardly. I just figured people do not want to read the same post from me repeatedly.

I live on the dividends of a 100% individual equity portfolio filled with stocks with long term records of increasing earnings / dividends at a good clip and no big clouds (IMO) on the horizon (currently PG, JNJ, KO, SYY, ADP, ABT,etc). These dividends have grown about 40% in the four years since I retired at 48. I feel very comfortable with this allocation and lose no sleep during the interesting market conditions we have experienced since I focused on individual stocks around 1993. Only a sustained cut in earnings/dividends in the companies I invest in would concern me, and since around 1/2 of my spending is travel / entertainment / toys I could handle a fair amount of pain. Changes in market value of the stocks is not important to me.
 
I live on the dividends of a 100% individual equity portfolio filled with stocks with long term records of increasing earnings / dividends at a good clip and no big clouds...Only a sustained cut in earnings/dividends in the companies I invest in would concern me
I am not a dividend investor so I have never studied that approach so I have a dumb dividends 101 question. I always read about dividends being expressed as a percentage - e.g 2.5%. Also, as I understand it dividends tend to grow over time - e.g. from 2% to 4%. What is the percentage of - current share price, price paid at purchase, something else? If it is based on current share price wouldn't the amount paid out while stable and/or growing as a percentage still be volatile to the degree that share price varies from year to year?
 
Expressed as a percentage -- yes.
Grows over time as a percentage -- no.

Dividends are paid out as $X per share. When we say "dividends grow", we mean that X becomes larger. Take a look at this: KO: Historical Prices for Coca-Cola Company (The) Common - Yahoo! Finance That's why CyclingInvestor says he doesn't care about changes in the stock price.

In 1990, KO had 2.5% dividend yield. $0.20 (split adjusted).

In 2009, KO had 2.9% dividend yield. $1.64.

The price of KO in 1996 was about 50 and now it's about 50--with excursions up to 86 and down to 40.
But the dividend has grown from $0.50 to $1.64.
 
Expressed as a percentage -- yes.
Grows over time as a percentage -- no.

Dividends are paid out as $X per share. When we say "dividends grow", we mean that X becomes larger. Take a look at this: KO: Historical Prices for Coca-Cola Company (The) Common - Yahoo! Finance That's why CyclingInvestor says he doesn't care about changes in the stock price.

In 1990, KO had 2.5% dividend yield. $0.20 (split adjusted).

In 2009, KO had 2.9% dividend yield. $1.64.

The price of KO in 1996 was about 50 and now it's about 50--with excursions up to 86 and down to 40.
But the dividend has grown from $0.50 to $1.64.

The split adjusted price of Coke in 1990 was 10 so the price of the stock has increased 500% and the dividend has increased 800%.
 
The split adjusted price of Coke in 1990 was 10 so the price of the stock has increased 500% and the dividend has increased 800%.
Interesting. Are their profits up that much, or are they distributing a larger share of their profits in dividends?
 
My bold.

The world will end next week! Can you prove me wrong today?

No! In fact, I can confirm it. For a tremendous number of people it will. Check daily newspaper Obituary for details.
 
The split adjusted price of Coke in 1990 was 10 so the price of the stock has increased 500% and the dividend has increased 800%.

So if a stock is worth $100/share and pays a 2% dividend you get $2. If the dividend doubles to 4% but the stock price falls to $50 you get the same $2? Your portfolio is worth 1/2 what it was though - doesn't matter as long as the dividend income remains the same, but having bought BofA stock when it was paying big dividends I am sensitive to the thought that a big fat percentage dividend of a tiny amount (say, 50% dividend of a $1 stock) is bupkiss. Don't understand the focus on dividend alone and ignore stock and thus portfolio value reasoning. I'm missing something - presumably Cycling Investor's ability: "I live on the dividends of a 100% individual equity portfolio filled with stocks with long term records of increasing earnings / dividends at a good clip and no big clouds (IMO) on the horizon (currently PG, JNJ, KO, SYY, ADP, ABT,etc)". That choosing of the safe stocks with ever increasing dividends thing.
 
Interesting. Are their profits up that much, or are they distributing a larger share of their profits in dividends?

Both, over the span of my database.

My spreadsheet runs back to 1994, so these are 1994 to 2010 split adjusted comparisons for earnings and dividends of my 3 biggest holdings :

JNJ e 77 to 481 d 29 to 216
KO e 98 to 345 d 39 to 176
PG e 72 to 384 d 35 to 193

Compounded growth rate

JNJ e 12% d 13%
KO e 8% d 10%
PG e 11% d 11%

Payout ratios

JNJ 38% to 45%
KO 40% to 51%
PG 49% to 50%
 
So if a stock is worth $100/share and pays a 2% dividend you get $2. If the dividend doubles to 4% but the stock price falls to $50 you get the same $2? Your portfolio is worth 1/2 what it was though - doesn't matter as long as the dividend income remains the same, but having bought BofA stock when it was paying big dividends I am sensitive to the thought that a big fat percentage dividend of a tiny amount (say, 50% dividend of a $1 stock) is bupkiss. Don't understand the focus on dividend alone and ignore stock and thus portfolio value reasoning. I'm missing something - presumably Cycling Investor's ability: "I live on the dividends of a 100% individual equity portfolio filled with stocks with long term records of increasing earnings / dividends at a good clip and no big clouds (IMO) on the horizon (currently PG, JNJ, KO, SYY, ADP, ABT,etc)". That choosing of the safe stocks with ever increasing dividends thing.

That is a key point. This is not just a buy-and-hold strategy. I monitor the companies and watch for the clouds on the horizon. I held C and BAC for some time, but sold both early and profitably (May to Oct 2007) when the credit crisis started showing signs of spreading beyond sub-prime. I held GGP (owner of shopping malls) for a long time, but sold them over the next year when they borrowed heavily to buy Rouse (owner of very nice shopping malls, office properties, and residential developments) - I do not like when a company changes direction - I 'hired' them to do what they had done well for many years. I am sensitive to (IMO) questionable capital allocation decisions. What I do not care about is stock price fluctuations - to me these are just noise - or a chance to buy / sell to someone who's valuation method is much different from mine.

If earnings and dividends are rising at a good clip, valuations (IMO) are good, and I see no trouble coming (as with most high quality REITs in 1998-1999), then I see dropping stock prices as a buying opportunity - especially when other good companies have valuations which are way too high (almost all non-REIT stocks in 1998-1999). When REITs valuations rose to higher than the alternatives (the PG / JNJ / KO stocks I own now) in 2005-2007 I switched back.
 
So if a stock is worth $100/share and pays a 2% dividend you get $2. If the dividend doubles to 4% but the stock price falls to $50 you get the same $2?

No. You still don't get it.
Companies don't pay dividends in percent. Companies pay dividends in dollars.

The yield percentage is what we calculate for our own information & amusement.

In the past few months Jim Cramer has been talking about "accidental high-yielders"----which are stocks where the price has collapsed, so the yield (D / P) now calculates to a high number.
 
When I read your comment, my first reaction was: "I could agree with this if we were talking about a Monte Carlo simulation, but with FIRECalc, a 95% success rate means that your portfolio would have survived what actually happened, 95% of the time." It occurred to me later that if the historical data only cover part of the spectrum of potential results, there could be market downturns that have no precedent in the available data. FIRECalc shows that your portfolio would have survived the Great Depression, the mid-century bear market, 1970's inflation, the Tech Wreck, and the Market Meltdown of 2008—great! But maybe Mr Market has bigger and blacker swans than those, in store for us in the future. Is that why you say there's no meaningful difference, between 80% success and 95%?
In addition tot he link posted by onward, these other Bernstein "Retirement Calculator from Hell" articles are well worth a read.

Retirement Calculator from Hell Part II

Retirement Calculator from Hell Part III

Retirement Calculator from Hell Part IV

Retirement Calculator from Hell Part V


From Part 3: After detailing the very wide variety of infrequent but cataclysmic social events that rock human societies, Bernstein writes:
A wildly optimistic historian might give us another few centuries of economic, political, and military continuity. Back-of-the-envelope, that’s about an 80% survival rate over the next 40 years. Thus, any estimate of long-term financial success greater than about 80% is meaningless.
But, in a nuthell: Yes, I think it's possible a black swan bigger and badder than any we've seen in the US in the last 100 years might pay us a visit. But, that's not what I'm most concerned about. Instead, I'm concerned that the good fairy has been sitting on our shoulder for the last 60 years, and that the wonderful average returns we've experienced during that time are now the base set of the data in FIRECalc and other models (Monte Carlo or not). If the good fairy has left us (and there are many reasons to believe she has), then we'll be getting about 2-4%% real total return on our portfolios for a long time, and it won't take a terrific black swan to wipe out retirees who need 6-8% real total return just to stay even.
 
No. You still don't get it.
Companies don't pay dividends in percent. Companies pay dividends in dollars.

The yield percentage is what we calculate for our own information & amusement.

In the past few months Jim Cramer has been talking about "accidental high-yielders"----which are stocks where the price has collapsed, so the yield (D / P) now calculates to a high number.

Very likely that I don't get it. Sort of sounds like this: we have rentals - our rents haven't gone down, in fact they've gone up a bit over the last couple years. Property value has dropped though, so one could say, even without the rent increases, that our yield has gone up. Some other people have rental property in the rust belt and buy the places for very little while renting them out for about the same money we charge. Their effective yield is much greater than ours. While what counts day to day is the amount of rent that comes in, not the percentage, it seems to me that the value (quality?) of the underlying investment is of some importance. If I'm looking at the same property or stock and the rent or dividend remain about the same but the percentage changes it indicates a change in the value of the property or stock. Maybe that change means Detroit is becoming a ghost town or BofA is about to go kerschitt, but Cycling Investor's "Changes in market value of the stocks is not important to me." needed his clarification - for me anyway.

You are saying that the companies don't pay a percentage of their current stock value as the dividend but so many cents per share and that we create the percentage. A worthy distinction, still, if my rents stay constant or grow a bit but property values drop a bunch or go up a lot my yield expressed as a percentage would show that and maybe indicate a good time to sell. I do appreciate your distinction - rents or dividends are what we spend, percentages are just mathematical conceits.
 
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