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Old 01-03-2008, 11:53 AM   #41
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Our school district has 23 National Merit finalists (out of a class of 800 students). Both ACT and SAT scores are above average. The cost of each student is less than $4,000 per year. Our property tax rate is about 1.25% of property value.
Which refutes the theory put forth by various teacher's unions that "spending more" is the only way to save the kids from educational destruction..........
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:13 PM   #42
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Which refutes the theory put forth by various teacher's unions that "spending more" is the only way to save the kids from educational destruction..........

In my local school district, repeated bond votes were needed to pass a building fund. In it were new schools based on population growth but it also had lots of extras. It finally passed in one of its reincarnations so now every high school will have their own natatorium. Heaven forbid the swimming and diving teams might have to share. Of course, the water polo teams will probably start saying they each need their own pool.

Each school has about 50 to 75 kids in water sports. I'm sure it won't raise the literacy rate by 0.1% but it will look good on the superintendent's resume. My tax dollars at work! I didn't vote for crappy bonds when my kids were in school and my wife worked for the superintendent.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:27 PM   #43
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Each school has about 50 to 75 kids in water sports. I'm sure it won't raise the literacy rate by 0.1% but it will look good on the superintendent's resume. My tax dollars at work! I didn't vote for crappy bonds when my kids were in school and my wife worked for the superintendent.
If you graduate from school and go on to flip burgers, then who really cares about your professional skills, right?

But even the most educated professional knows that it is a whole lot easier to get the job done when everyone works well as a team.
Team sports are one of the best ways to teach future functioning members of our society how to contribute, play, and work well together.
And if it keeps some kids off the streets and out of crime/drugs, all the more better.
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:11 PM   #44
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I live in a very high tax state and our schools stink. But the teachers want more money. So lets not equate high property tax with quality education. I see college graduates that must admit they are not smarter than a fifth grader. I think it's wrong to fund schools with property tax to begin with. It's also a discrace to highly tax retired people that worked hard all there life. Once you retire you should get some tax breaks. Just look at all the freeloaders on welfare and low income housing. They spend 45 years of loafing, breed like cockroaches, and then go into a nursing home for free.
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:16 PM   #45
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Once you retire you should get some tax breaks.
Why? - ERD50 (PS - I am retired)
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:48 PM   #46
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I disagree. A reverse mortgage is an option. It might be a good option for some people. I don't want options taken away from me because maybe some people won't choose well.

Just like the sub-prime mess, I think education is the key. If anyone is going to do the reverse mortgage, it should be made clear just what the risks are.



I would say the 'rip-off' is getting obsessed with the idea that you should live in a home that is going to deplete your resources. That is the root of the problem. LBYM - plain and simple. Again - education. If you don't have the money to cover that lifestyle, downsize NOW, before it gets depleted.

Don't ask for a bail-out (asking ME to pay YOUR property taxes) because you are living beyond your means.

-ERD50
Kudos to your comments! (: thumbsup
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:28 PM   #47
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I know this is going to cause a big explosion of words. Why not eliminate school taxes and just charge tuition? You got the kids, you pay, or maybe you could ask the Grandparents or the neighbors without kids to help out voluntarily.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:33 PM   #48
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I know this is going to cause a big explosion of words. Why not eliminate school taxes and just charge tuition? You got the kids, you pay, or maybe you could ask the Grandparents or the neighbors without kids to help out voluntarily.
Because home schooling would explode, and the teacher's unions would sue to make home schooling illegal.............

I do remember one thing, when I paid tuition, the professors didn't care if you flunked or not, but in the K-12 system, everyone got "pushed along".........interesting...........
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:37 PM   #49
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In my local school district, repeated bond votes were needed to pass a building fund. In it were new schools based on population growth but it also had lots of extras. It finally passed in one of its reincarnations so now every high school will have their own natatorium. Heaven forbid the swimming and diving teams might have to share. Of course, the water polo teams will probably start saying they each need their own pool.

Each school has about 50 to 75 kids in water sports. I'm sure it won't raise the literacy rate by 0.1% but it will look good on the superintendent's resume. My tax dollars at work! I didn't vote for crappy bonds when my kids were in school and my wife worked for the superintendent.
The cost of our students is $9100 per child, and the local school district says we now need a $16.4 million elementary school to help with overcrowding.

A local citizens group has proposed taking the 5th grades out of the elementary schools, building a second story on the existing middle school, and moving the 5th graders there, but it has fallen on deaf ears. The cost was less than $5 million.

Funny, no one has brought up the cost to the taxpayers of having to hire 30 new teachers, admin staff, etc, for the new elementary school. Guess they "forgot" that............
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:31 PM   #50
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I know this is going to cause a big explosion of words. Why not eliminate school taxes and just charge tuition? You got the kids, you pay, or maybe you could ask the Grandparents or the neighbors without kids to help out voluntarily.
No explosion at all R Wood. As a matter of fact there is quite a bit of logic to your thinking. IMHO the only way ANY product ever gets better, or cheaper for that matter, is through competition. Once you remove competition, like the public school system, there is no incentive to do any better. I do see some changes that are trying to occur within state govt's that are trying to bring the competition back, like tying funding to a schools performance. Do better, and you get more funding. There are some who believe that if you dump 1000's of computers into innner city schools, that "magically" the students there will become higher performing. The truth is, is that if a school has a serious decipline problem, and lacks good teachers, then money will not make a difference at all. And things like dicipline and work ethic cannot be bought.... they must be earned.
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:46 PM   #51
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Good god teachers getting the blame again.

Bottom line worthless parents who send their children unprepared to school. Parents who had no good reason to have the kids they have. Just because you can have sex doesn't mean you should be a parent.

You should have met some of the worthless dregs that had children that we taught. Damaged uncared for kids. I am not a social worker, I was a teacher who did not have the money or ability to fix the damage that the parents inflicted on these kids.
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Old 01-04-2008, 09:30 PM   #52
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Good god teachers getting the blame again.
Not at all, I am the product of two public school teachers. The REALITY is that throwing money at a problem has really never worked...........

My mom had a master's degree in education, taught LD and gifted kids, and did this for grades K-8. After 30 years of teaching, she quit suddenly, one reason being she was spending $1500 a year out of her OWN POCKET to feed suburban kids breakfast.............

That is a parental failure, not a teacher failure. Building new schools and throwing money at things probably won't work unless parents take more interest in their children's future.........

Please refer to this article for what I consider to be disturbing events:

JS Online: Editorial: A blow to innovation
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:12 PM   #53
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Not at all, I am the product of two public school teachers. The REALITY is that throwing money at a problem has really never worked...........

My mom had a master's degree in education, taught LD and gifted kids, and did this for grades K-8. After 30 years of teaching, she quit suddenly, one reason being she was spending $1500 a year out of her OWN POCKET to feed suburban kids breakfast.............

That is a parental failure, not a teacher failure. Building new schools and throwing money at things probably won't work unless parents take more interest in their children's future.........

Please refer to this article for what I consider to be disturbing events:

JS Online: Editorial: A blow to innovation
Well said .... I apologise if what I said was taken to mean that this is all the teachers fault, this is not what I intended. I agree that the parents of these children are most directly responsible for the outcome of their childrens behavior. I would go even further and say that parents that stress education to their children is one of the most determining factors in that child's future success or failure.
And just to be fair.... there ARE less than perfect teachers out there. There have been numerous stories about how impossible it is to fire teachers from the unions in places such as NYC for example. Being raised in NYC.... I got to see some of this firsthand. It might surprise some to learn that there are many hundred teachers who are part of the teachers union in NYC that go to a special building in Manhattan everyday for 8 hours... and sit there doing nothing. They do this everyday... and get paid for it. Why Because they have been deemed unfit, dangerous, etc, but because of union rules, cannot be fired. So they report to this building in Manhattan and sit there everyday for 8 hours, doing nothing, and getting paid for it. And this brings me back to the origional point that I was trying to make.... lack of competition is almost always the problem. If these teachers COULD be fired for lack of performance (and conversely financial rewarded for better performance), and if parents COULD be prosecuted for their childrens poor behavior (as it is a reflection of their values), then conditions might actually improve.
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:21 PM   #54
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I know this is going to cause a big explosion of words. Why not eliminate school taxes and just charge tuition? You got the kids, you pay, or maybe you could ask the Grandparents or the neighbors without kids to help out voluntarily.
No need for explosion of words.
Your suggestion while it makes sense on the surface, could have drastic repercussions to our economy, at least for a number of years.
The reason that I say that is cause and effect.
If only the parents pay for tuition, then there would be a considerably (I'm totally guessing at about 65%) less people having kids.
If there were 65% less children being born for too long, that would mean that there may not be enough to support the population as they age. And I'm not just referring to Social Security.
Also, think of it this way. It costs about $9,000/child/household/year to educate our children from K-12 (at least in our area, although that figure may be a little understated). That covers facilities,maintenance of facilities, busing, teacher's/maintenance worker's/superintendent's salaries, teacher's/maintenance worker's/superintendent's pensions, teacher's/maintenance worker's/superintendent's healthcare, teacher's/maintenance worker's/superintendent's continuing education, books, materials, etc. If we made only parents pay for it, there would be very, very few folks who could afford to pay well over $20,000/child/year, simply because you took the "/household" out of the equation. And so our country would become a country of idiots (not that there aren't a lot of 'em already ).
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:25 PM   #55
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... and if parents COULD be prosecuted for their childrens poor behavior (as it is a reflection of their values), then conditions might actually improve.
I'd have to say that this is already a very good possibility. Isn't it true that most (if not all) states have a mandatory requirement for kids to go to school, or the parent can be sent to jail (if the offense occurs too often)?
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:30 PM   #56
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Not at all, I am the product of two public school teachers. The REALITY is that throwing money at a problem has really never worked...........

My mom had a master's degree in education, taught LD and gifted kids, and did this for grades K-8. After 30 years of teaching, she quit suddenly, one reason being she was spending $1500 a year out of her OWN POCKET to feed suburban kids breakfast.............

That is a parental failure, not a teacher failure. Building new schools and throwing money at things probably won't work unless parents take more interest in their children's future.........

Please refer to this article for what I consider to be disturbing events:

JS Online: Editorial: A blow to innovation
I agree ... well said.
I am the product of both public and private education. Although my limited private education far outweighed the public education in the area that I lived in.
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Old 01-05-2008, 01:26 AM   #57
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Some parents wouldn't even buy the books if they had to pay for education the kids would remain totally uneducated. Public schools take the children of drug addicts and drug abusers, and parents who don't speak English and put them in classrooms with learning disabled and gifted kids and typical kids. The gives these unfortunate children at least some boot straps. The worst of the public school kids will at least learn to read and write so if they ever want an education they have a start.
I was a horrible student about half Ds and half Cs, my parents didn't act like they cared and I didn't care. We moved every year or so and I just went through the system. I didn't learn phonics, spelling, math or grammar and punctuation. My parents wouldn't have taught us anything at all. What I did learn was that bookkeeping was easy. I watched the teacher write on the board, did no homework and aced all the test. He said two years of high school bookkeeping you could get a job. We moved they didn't offer a second year at the new school but I remembered it was a way to get a job.
After high school I worked minimum wage jobs, got married and became a housewife. Then I wanted a job and remembered a second year of bookkeeping would get me a job so I went to a community college and asked about bookkeeping. They enrolled me in acc101 which turned out to be accounting. Accounting was easy too so I got a two year degree, the years later a 4 year degree. I tested when I started college and had a 8th grade level in math, but I could read ok, so I studied math for a week and tested at 12th grade level. I took remedial math in 9th grade and no more math until college yet I was able to learn algebra and calculus because I could read. Managed to get a GPA of 3.57 in college from reading the books because I was forced to go to public school as a child.
Every child should be allowed to at least get a good 8th grade education even if the parents are total losers, then they can learn more when they are older.
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:12 AM   #58
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It might surprise some to learn that there are many hundred teachers who are part of the teachers union in NYC that go to a special building in Manhattan everyday for 8 hours... and sit there doing nothing. They do this everyday... and get paid for it. Why Because they have been deemed unfit, dangerous, etc, but because of union rules, cannot be fired. So they report to this building in Manhattan and sit there everyday for 8 hours, doing nothing, and getting paid for it. And this brings me back to the origional point that I was trying to make.... lack of competition is almost always the problem. If these teachers COULD be fired for lack of performance (and conversely financial rewarded for better performance), and if parents COULD be prosecuted for their childrens poor behavior


They do get fired, they do lose their jobs much sooner than the media will lead you to believe.
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Old 01-05-2008, 09:16 AM   #59
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Good god teachers getting the blame again.

Bottom line worthless parents who send their children unprepared to school. Parents who had no good reason to have the kids they have. Just because you can have sex doesn't mean you should be a parent.

You should have met some of the worthless dregs that had children that we taught. Damaged uncared for kids. I am not a social worker, I was a teacher who did not have the money or ability to fix the damage that the parents inflicted on these kids.
Your statement leads me to believe the school you taught in had very few "qualified" parents. I don't have stats, but I would have to disagree with some of the undertones of your assertion.

Last year the local rag printed the results on the state mandated test for each of our schools. My son was going to a school attended by primarily wealthy students for the first part of the year. We moved half way through the school year and unfortunately our new area goes to a school along with many lower income students. The results on the tests were interesting. The new school scored higher in all areas for all grades when compared to the old school. The homework and tests were easier and focused on basics at the new school when compared to the old school. So why did the new school score so much higher? I really don't know, but could it be that the old school was cramming so much into their school day the students didn't have the time to master the knowledge? I think the new school spent more time on the basics and drilled them into the heads of the students resulting in higher scores.

I had to question his language arts teacher this year. The students were assigned a research project to complete. Mind you this is the first one ever done in the schools. The assistance provided by the teacher was very minimal at best. She handed out a very general outline and told the parents to assist the students. Very little class time was given to prepare for the writing of the paper or conducting any research. My big question was what are you doing for those students whose parents either didn't finish school or have horrible researching skills. Her response was the parents have to help. Basically she hammered the students for their parents lack of skill. How in the heck can she expect the parents to actually teach the students, that is her job. That is why I pay my taxes to the school. I have no problem assisting my son with lessons provided in the classroom (in fact I have the email addresses for all of his teachers on my contacts page, and email them often), but if the teacher does not have the time to....uh....teach, then how can she hold the students responsible for something not taught in class. My son is in the 4th grade. Like I said this is the first research project in school that he had to complete.

My other issue with you statement is, if the problem lies with the parents (I do believe a lot does), then how can the problem be systemic. Your assertion seems to be the parents are the main problem. If that is the situation then there are far fewer decent parents than completely worthless parents. I would understand if there was a problem with certain areas/school/states, but in this situation the problem seems to lie across the board. What is the one common denomenator between all of the school districts? Teaching methods being taught in college.
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Old 01-05-2008, 02:56 PM   #60
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To be fair to schoolteachers, for every mope who is protected from their incompetent teaching by the union there are many good teachers whose jobs are preserved from unfair termination.
K-through-12 represents one of the most venal manifestations of the lowest human drives existent. The politics is venomous: cliques of moronic, aggressive parents, petty, anal-retentive administrations with a shallow grasp of any intellectual rigor but showing favoritism to the connected, and increasingly imbecilic, disturbed, violent and dysfunctional groups of youth.
Competent teachers need a union to survive this minefield.

Not an arena in which I'd care to play!!


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It might surprise some to learn that there are many hundred teachers who are part of the teachers union in NYC that go to a special building in Manhattan everyday for 8 hours... and sit there doing nothing. They do this everyday... and get paid for it. Why Because they have been deemed unfit, dangerous, etc, but because of union rules, cannot be fired. So they report to this building in Manhattan and sit there everyday for 8 hours, doing nothing, and getting paid for it. And this brings me back to the origional point that I was trying to make.... lack of competition is almost always the problem. If these teachers COULD be fired for lack of performance (and conversely financial rewarded for better performance), and if parents COULD be prosecuted for their childrens poor behavior
They do get fired, they do lose their jobs much sooner than the media will lead you to believe.
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