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Old 01-07-2008, 11:21 PM   #81
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The area where I would most like to see this applied is at the state universities. No tax subsidies! No schlorships! Students at state universities should pay the full cost of providing their education.
This is already happening youbet. States pay for less and less of university cost. Why throw the money away on powerless professors? Your tax money is much better distributed to political cronies. Scholarships are being replaced by loans that the students will spend some years paying back.

The one thing you won't get if school funding is cut is a reduction in your taxes. It will just go to a different group of people.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:52 PM   #82
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This is already happening youbet. States pay for less and less of university cost. Why throw the money away on powerless professors? Your tax money is much better distributed to political cronies. Scholarships are being replaced by loans that the students will spend some years paying back.

The one thing you won't get if school funding is cut is a reduction in your taxes. It will just go to a different group of people.
You got that right let's see there's been about a trillion dollars spent on the current Wars and I almost forgot about the millions of dollars thrown at No Child Left Behind.

We've got to clear some of the room out of the prisons so we can put the bad guys in there, like the pedophiles and the politicians. Kinky Friedman


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Old 01-08-2008, 12:02 AM   #83
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The one thing you won't get if school funding is cut is a reduction in your taxes. It will just go to a different group of people.
Good point. I have no rebuttal to that at all.......
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:31 AM   #84
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I'm not sure how they deal with 'problem' students that the private schools would not want. MAybe the public schools have to take any overflow? I guess I need to google or wiki on this - but later.

-ERD50
Yep, there are lots of issues. That's just one of dozens and dozens.

On that one issue in particular, if you force schools that were previously referred to as public schools to take all the special needs students, handicapped students, ESL students, etc., you haven't created a competitive playing field at all. You've just decided to use tax dollars to fund private and religious schools.

If the only private schools within a reasonable distance won't take my kid because he/she is the wrong religion, color, needs wheel chair access, etc., then you've forced me to waste my life making local politicians as miserable as possible 24x7.

So, yeah, do some research and try to think of specific answers to questions like that one, or how the cost reductions will actually be realized while increasing taxes to pay for private/religious students to attend their schools.
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:38 AM   #85
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Yep, there are lots of issues. That's just one of dozens and dozens.

On that one issue in particular, if you force schools that were previously referred to as public schools to take all the special needs students, handicapped students, ESL students, etc., you haven't created a competitive playing field at all. You've just decided to use tax dollars to fund private and religious schools.

If the only private schools within a reasonable distance won't take my kid because he/she is the wrong religion, color, needs wheel chair access, etc., then you've forced me to waste my life making local politicians as miserable as possible 24x7.

So, yeah, do some research ...
I will do some more research, I've pretty much ignored the voucher idea in the past though I know it gets a lot of support in some areas (but so do some wacky ideas, so that is not meant as a quality measure).

But the special needs student issue does not strike me as deal-breaker at all. Since the school district is currently paying more to help those kids, that could be part of their voucher. And the private schools could be required to accept their 'fair share' of special needs students (how do parochial schools deal with this today?). Maybe certain schools would be allowed to 'focus' their programs - one could be better equipped with physical therapy, another with more ESL facilities, etc.

While there may be significant issues with vouchers, the relevant thing to keep in mind is - are those issues worse than the issues with the current system?

I also don't want to sound as if I'm bashing the current system. There are the dramatic flaws like the New York 'rubber room' for some non-functional teachers, and many less dramatic flaws. But despite those flaws, I think the vast majority of teachers and administrators are trying hard to do a good job, and for the most part they do. But I've seen competition drive people to perform beyond where they ever thought they could. Overall, I'm leaning towards the idea that competition would help our schools too.

-ERD50
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:53 PM   #86
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You can compare tuition prices between parochial and public schools all you want, some schools are just better. I am not catholic but I have the deepest respect for Nuns that teach, it’s not about money to them, but they teach well. They also don’t tolerate cut ups.

The voucher program does include parochial enrollment and it should. But the number of vouchers is very limited, because of the strong teachers union, and an x-teacher for our governor.

Competition gives the consumer the best possible service for the best price. Our teachers union owns there own heath care insurance company. They have the highest cost for insurance anywhere I have ever heard of. They then pass that expense on to the tax payer. They also can retire at 50 years old and only work 6 to 7 months per year, so what is there real hourly wage? When they retire they get the pension at 50, social security from the union until they reach 65, and free health care. Exactly who else has better benefits than them?

Yes education is wonderful, but the public schools were ruined by me 45 years ago, and they are worse now.

At my grandsons Lutheran school they taught him to use computers in first grade, one foreign language mandatory, and he plays 3 different instruments. He is in 5th. Grade now and can read excellent, his spelling is better than mine, and his math skills are excellent.
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:28 PM   #87
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They also can retire at 50 years old and only work 6 to 7 months per year, so what is there real hourly wage?
6 months = multiply pay by 2
7 months =
multiply pay by 1.7
8 months =
multiply pay by 1.5
9 months =
multiply pay by 1.3
Quote:
When they retire they get the pension at 50, social security from the union until they reach 65, and free health care. Exactly who else has better benefits than them?
police chiefs and officers, FBI/CIA agents, fire fighters, congress men/women, air traffic controllers, CEOs, etc.
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:45 PM   #88
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I keep hearing this oh it only costs 7700 at the private HS and 10400 at the public HS. You forget, at the public HS we must provide Security, Busing and other fixed costs that the private schools well just do not have.
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:17 PM   #89
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I keep hearing this oh it only costs 7700 at the private HS and 10400 at the public HS. You forget, at the public HS we must provide Security, Busing and other fixed costs that the private schools well just do not have.
.. also public schools incur additional cost for children with special needs; higher administrative costs because of compliance with federal, state and local laws in educating children, such as funding, program development and curriculum; higher teacher salaries; pension benefits.
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:23 PM   #90
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I taught a class of ED high school students who would tear up a private high school! These students were the most disturbed teenagers that I had ever worked with. Yep the public HS had to have IEPs and kept some of them to the age of 21. Almost all the private HS in the country would NEVER ACCEPT THESE STUDENTS!!! Oh it IS cheaper to keep them in a public HS even at 15K a year than a prison cell at 50K a year!

I just love the BS about Competition to make the public schools better, whata crock of....
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:34 PM   #91
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I just love the BS about Competition to make the public schools better, whata crock of....
newguy888, I agree that the private to public school is not an apples-to-apples comparison, for many reasons.

But skip that for a minute - wouldn't competition be a good thing? Why not? It seems to work fairly well just about everywhere, or at least better than alternatives.

-ERD50
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:52 PM   #92
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I taught a class of ED high school students who would tear up a private high school! These students were the most disturbed teenagers that I had ever worked with. Yep the public HS had to have IEPs and kept some of them to the age of 21. Almost all the private HS in the country would NEVER ACCEPT THESE STUDENTS!!! Oh it IS cheaper to keep them in a public HS even at 15K a year than a prison cell at 50K a year!
If discipline problems persist in the classroom, it will prevent the children who want to learn from receiving the best education possible regardless of how good the teachers are and how involved the parents are. Since private schools can select their students, they tend not to exhibit this kind of problem.
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:33 PM   #93
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newguy888, I agree that the private to public school is not an apples-to-apples comparison, for many reasons.

But skip that for a minute - wouldn't competition be a good thing? Why not? It seems to work fairly well just about everywhere, or at least better than alternatives.

-ERD50
There is competition between private and public schools right now, today, at this very moment. I like that. How do you feel about it?
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:36 AM   #94
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6 months = multiply pay by 2
7 months = multiply pay by 1.7
8 months = multiply pay by 1.5
9 months = multiply pay by 1.3

police chiefs and officers, FBI/CIA agents, fire fighters, congress men/women, air traffic controllers, CEOs, etc.
Spanky..... You didn't convert to the "real hourly wage" requested by lynxvile. You converted to an "annualized" wage. For example, if my neighbor pays me $20 to spend one hour cutting his grass, that is the equivalent of $41,600 annualized. ($20 x 2080 hr = $41,600.)

That's what irritates me about those "illegals" who sneak across the border and do landscaping work here. We let them stay and they make $41,600 annualized for doing one lousy hour of work cutting my neighbor's grass.

Teachers are cheap. It's those landscaping guys who are ripping us off! $41,600 annualized for one lousy hour of work......sheeeze.....!! We should be issued government vouchers to pay anyone we want to cut our grass! With a $41,600 voucher, I bet I could get thefed to drive out here and do it!
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:39 AM   #95
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I taught a class of ED high school students who would tear up a private high school! These students were the most disturbed teenagers that I had ever worked with. Yep the public HS had to have IEPs and kept some of them to the age of 21. Almost all the private HS in the country would NEVER ACCEPT THESE STUDENTS!!! Oh it IS cheaper to keep them in a public HS even at 15K a year than a prison cell at 50K a year!

I just love the BS about Competition to make the public schools better, whata crock of....
My neighbor is a history teacher at a private high school. He told me his students are awesome, then added "But I suppose when Mom and Dad are paying an extra $12,000 a year for them to attend, I get "total cooperation"..............
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:40 AM   #96
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I keep hearing this oh it only costs 7700 at the private HS and 10400 at the public HS. You forget, at the public HS we must provide Security, Busing and other fixed costs that the private schools well just do not have.
A lot of private schools don't have free health care or pensions..........
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:56 AM   #97
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It seems to me that the argument is somewhat analogous to end-of-life care. When do we pull the plug on disinterested, disruptive, unmotivated students?

Where the analogy breaks down is that when you "pull the plug", the patient dies. The "student", however, will still be around...

Guess they can make license plates...
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:03 AM   #98
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It seems to me that the argument is somewhat analogous to end-of-life care. When do we pull the plug on disinterested, disruptive, unmotivated students?

Where the analogy breaks down is that when you "pull the plug", the patient dies. The "student", however, will still be around...

Guess they can make license plates...
As I was reading this quote, it struck me that this would equally be true if you replaced the word "students" with "trolls"...
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:07 AM   #99
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Trolls can make license plates?
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:19 AM   #100
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It seems to me that the argument is somewhat analogous to end-of-life care. When do we pull the plug on disinterested, disruptive, unmotivated students?

Where the analogy breaks down is that when you "pull the plug", the patient dies. The "student", however, will still be around...

Guess they can make license plates...
I don't understand the "dis-connect". Ultimately, teachers should not be "baby-sitters". I suppose it was easier in the old days when they could actually inflict discipline without the fear of lawsuit..........

One of my friends had two teenage daughters expelled from their school for smoking pot in the bathroom. No second chance, no appeal, or anything.

She had to move them to a different school farther away, go through a bunch of hassles,etc. All I can say is their behavior has been modified 1000% to the better. And, knowing her, the girls got some behavior modification at home that made them LOOK FORWARD to school to escape her wrath............

So, in the end, it's about PARENTING..........
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