Thoughts on unemployment and age

ziggy29 said:
It is certainly my hope that karma works out this way for employers who take that "live to work" attitude once the market improves.
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As long as senior execs are so highly compensated for achieving extreme cost reductions I fear this will continue and even get worse.
 
lemming said:
Hope your headhunter friend wasn't joining in and is sending out applicants based on skills and knowledge.

I don't think the get em young theory works as well as they think.
One word ... Facebook
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I'm not sure what you mean, but in recruiting, Facebook is a tool that employers use to filter prospective hires by age without violating any regulations.
 
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NW-Bound said:
Say what you will, but nothing motivates people like hunger. And many young folks without work are hungry.

If us geezers should find our financial means curtailed, how many would rather sell a kidney like Khan often says, or go do some w*rk?

Dunno about the rest of y'all, but I love my kidneys, even if they produce stones (big ones too!).
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+1
Once I reached a certain financial point (didn't have to wo%$ anymore)
I lost a lot of that "Hunger". I remb. closing on a lake front lot and depositing
that check and thinking "he he"
I have a friend in the industry who after 30+ years of wo%$ and has not saved a dime. He still has that "Hunger"
 
MichaelB said:
I'm not sure what you mean, but in recruiting, Facebook is a tool that employers use to filter prospective hires by age without violating any regulations.
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IMO, they should be able to look at what you post in public all they want. Among other things, if you are looking for a job and there's a lot of inappropriate stuff there, it brings a legitimate question about judgment into play.

But I draw the line there. No forcing you to "friend" anyone there to see what you restrict to a few people, and certainly no asking for your password. What's next? Demanding that you have your house bugged and videotaped 24/7 so you only do what the almighty corporation expects of its serfs?
 
ziggy29 said:
IMO, they should be able to look at what you post in public all they want. Among other things, if you are looking for a job and there's a lot of inappropriate stuff there, it brings a legitimate question about judgment into play.

But I draw the line there. No forcing you to "friend" anyone there to see what you restrict to a few people, and certainly no asking for your password. What's next? Demanding that you have your house bugged and videotaped 24/7 so you only do what the almighty corporation expects of its serfs?
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I'm thinking this is another overblown media flap. The article only mentioned two companies that have done this. One was the Maryland Dept. of Corrections, I think. And as far as I've seen, nobody has given them the information. One person suggested that you sign on and walk the interviewer through your page without surrendering the password. But I wouldn't even do that. Might be a keystroke logger on their machine. But unless this practice actually gets widespread I'm going to assume it's just an attempt at a paycheck by a newspaper writer.
 
harley said:
I'm thinking this is another overblown media flap. The article only mentioned two companies that have done this. One was the Maryland Dept. of Corrections, I think. And as far as I've seen, nobody has given them the information. One person suggested that you sign on and walk the interviewer through your page without surrendering the password. But I wouldn't even do that. Might be a keystroke logger on their machine. But unless this practice actually gets widespread I'm going to assume it's just an attempt at a paycheck by a newspaper writer.
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I've heard plenty of stories about employers demanding that you 'friend' them so they can look at your stuff. Asking for the password is still rare and on the 'cutting edge' of corporate privacy intrusion.

Still, the fact that asking for a password is even quasi-legal is troubling as it is. The trend line is clearly rising for corporate employer intrusion into our privacy. I have no reason to trust this won't spread if it's not nipped in the bud.
 
All of this discussion does is confirm my view that there should be other options for older workers. Why is it we must work in our 60's as hard as we did in our 30's and earn the same big dollars? Why can't older people take a reduction in salary, and not have to work 60+ hours a week? What is wrong with taking a 20% pay cut, giving our employers an honest day's work, and going home every day at 5:00? If one has done a bit of saving and investing, then that should allow a person to pay their bills and be ready for retirement. My 2 cents.
 
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Finance Dave said:
I agree with the questioning of 80-hour weeks. Another factor many omit is the personal time many of us take during the workday. For example, my air conditioner tune-up is next week. They gave me a 4-hour window from 2-6 pm. So I'll work from home. However, there will be an hour in that period where I'm letting them in the door, asking questions, signing the paperwork, and letting them out the door.

What about dentist and doctors appointments? Lunches that run a bit long? Picking up the dry cleaning? Talking to your CPA on the phone while at work?
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You make an excellent point.
 
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When I was in my 40's I realized that I was the parent of the 70 year-old within. Plus, I suspected that I may need to work in my elder years. Also, I planned for the eventuality that my mouth "would be the last to go..." I went back to school, and earned an advanced degree in a creative healing arts field- which is something that feeds me, body, mind and spirit.

Today, at 66, I am still earning money happily. We could get by without me earning any income, but a reasonable challenge, on my terms, gives me a sense of vitality and purpose in life. I am so thankful now that I made the decision to trust, and then let go, allowing myself to grow into my inner vision of what calls me vis a vis "good work in the world."

I think that an operating principle for working during later (earlier too!) years is how much control one has over one's life. The 70-something woman who commutes those God-awful hours seems to be caught up in a system that is beyond her control; a true rat race necessary to simply survive. I feel very sorry for anyone in that situation.
 
Rustward said:
Are they really working 80 hour weeks or has this been embellished a little?
That would average to 11.39 hours per day for 7 days per week with never a day off.

I do recall one year working 2400 hours (I have records) -- mayby the most time I ever put in over a calendar year, and it seemed to kill me. That is an average of a little over 46 hours per week over 52 weeks. I did take three weeks of vacation that year, and a few other days off, so the weeks I worked probably averaged something like 50 hours per week, and it was a killer. Sorry but I'm having a difficult time with the 80 number unless the job is completely mindless.
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donheff said:
I'm skeptical of these 60-80 hour uncompensated work weeks. ...
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I think you guys have lived sheltered lives!

I've worked some pretty long stretches of 60 hour weeks. I'm trying to forget but it must have been about 6 months solid one time, maybe a month or two a few others. And then 48-52 was pretty standard for years, more as needed. That was not 'killing me' at all, though the long stretches of 60 hour weeks were taking a toll. It felt odd when I actually hit a point where I decided I could just leave after 8 hours (mostly after I had my benefits locked in).

I've also worked 80-100 for 4 weeks straight, with 60 hour weeks leading up and following to prep and work out issues, but that was a burst to get a specific defined job completed. I could not have done that on a regular basis, I'd find something else. But an entrepreneur, who is loving what he/she does, and is mindful of the potential pay-off - I do believe they could do 80 hour weeks for a long time, and do it productively. A lot has to do with your mind-set.

The 80-100 hour weeks were not 'mindless' work for me. We had to disassemble and pack up computerized, sensitive electronic and mechanical equipment, re-assemble it at the new site, get it all functioning, calibrated, perform our own verification and repeatability tests, get everything networked and configured, and then submit samples from production runs so that QC could certify the line for full production. Production being down meant big bucks, so there was lots of pressure to get these lines up and running as soon as possible. Though I'd rather do that than screw a door hinge on 120 times an hour, for 80 hours a week.

Sure, some people who 'work' 60 hours a week are spending some time rehashing 'the game', or whatever. But some who 'work' 40 hours do that too.

-ERD50
 
Lot of stuff in this thread. I do think it's dangerous to generalize about age groups, there are true exceptions. I used to be prejudiced to hiring younger folks if they had promise, it's all about the work ethic. Believe it's more important than education or experience. Prime example was woman who worked in a public education role for our utility; she now runs the finance and HR ($90mm rev). I'm proud to have given her the chances. Compare that to degreed engineers ages 30-40 who felt imposed upon to be held to 40 hours a week.

80 hours a week? I never did that much but 45-50 was routine when for years when I'd get a new role to learn it. SIL in banking in NY was expected to "be there" til 11 at night, Saturdays, even with little to do at times. Paid well, yes. Now in London where those hours definitely not the case; works five days til 7 unless a big project. I know that even in 40's and 50's there was a limit to what I could do and actually have it meaningful...60 a week? Wouldn't work for more than a week.

Now? I'm FI but for some reason still working. At 60, unless it's really interesting I have no desire to work over 40, I've cut hours and want to cut more but run into having to buy insurance elsewhere. Even if I needed the money, I'd struggle. We're all different, but I can only say I believe I'm basically burned out to a degree. In my currently hard to define role (surrounded by really bright hard working engineers and scientists, but who value their family time; they give the company their money's worth and more) I'm embarrassed that I would not be the older guy you could point to and say "older workers are more productive yatta yatta." For some reason they want me here for my experience and industry knowledge that goes beyond technical. So I'm here. I think work ethic again is a key issue; I have (had?) a strong one but with not much to do right now, it wears on me. But that same work ethic eats at me that if I bail, I won't have something "productive" to do.

Well anyway, I guess my comments on workers/age turned into a basic brain dump on my current struggles!:rolleyes:
 
Buckeye said:
Were you paid overtime or for just 40 hours, i.e. salary?
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Straight salary - no overtime. This type of work is usually at a remote construction camp. Housing and transportation provided by the employer.
 
eridanus said:
As am I. Working 60 hours/week is hard and a huge strain on the body. Doing 80 hours/week for months/years at a time? Work 8-8 7 days/week? Never seen it unless a release is imminent.
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From February of 1996 to late 2000, I averaged about 65-80 hours per week, between a full-time office job and a second job delivering pizzas. A few times, I actually hit 90 hours.

At my peak, my schedule went something like this...
Regular M-F office job from 7:30-4, sometimes 8-4:30. PLUS...
Monday: 5-midnight
Tuesday: 5-midnight
Wednesday: off
Thursday: 5-midnight
Friday: 5pm-1am
Saturday: 5pm-1am.

And those ending times were approximate...often we got out of there later, depending on how long it took to clean up the store at night.

I used to come home from my regular job Wednesday night, crash on the couch, and fall asleep immediately. Saturday, I often slept the whole day, until it was time to go into work. And then, I was usually wired up Saturday night, so I'd hang out with friends or co-workers at IHOP or a local diner or some other goofing around. And on Sunday, if I woke up before noon, it was rare.

Once I got all the debt from my divorce paid off, I started saving up, and slowly started cutting back my hours. For the final year or so, I was down to mainly 5-close Thurs/Fri/Sat.

That was also from the age of 26 to 30. I'm about to turn 42 soon, and have gotten a bit complacent and out of shape. I dunno if I could ever go back to a schedule like that. Maybe, I could acclimate to it eventually, if I really had to? One good thing about it was that having two separate jobs broke up the monotony a bit. Having to pull 65-80 hours per week at the same job would probably drive me insane really quickly!
 
Andre, your work ethic during that time is admirable. It seems you were focused on paying off debt...a good thing. Seems you're on a more managable schedule now...the hard work paid off.
 
There are lots of people here broadcasting that they worked monumental numbers of hours without actually saying what they did -- but a few did. I guess I was referring to my years in software development (operating systems software) where there is not necessarily a clearly defined way to do things. You have to invent, be very creative, and work with multiple processes simultaneously running, and coordinate the interrelationships of sometimes hundreds of different parameters that can afffect the outcome of what you are doing. A steady diet of 50 hours a week of it is a lot.

Contrast that with the other extreme: For example, there is an auto state inspection business near here. One guy, and all he does is inspections. No gas, no adjusting headlights, no oil changes, no air for tires, no changing wiper blades. Inspections only. He is probably open at least 75 hours per week. I drive by there at least three or four times a week. He seems to spend most of his time sitting in a chair waiting for customers to show up. That I could probably do 75 or 80 hours per week easily.

I also did a significant amount of problem determination (take a several gigabyte storage dump of a dead machine -- ones and zeros, and figure out why the machine quit running), and found that relatively easy compared to development.

So it is not just the number of hours, but the difficulty of the work that matters.

Oh, and the burst factor. Many people have worked 80 hour weeks, but did they average that many hours? And over what time frame? A week, a month, a year, their whole career?
 
As other posters have said, it would depend on actual function performed and intensity of job. 2 of my close relatives are in finance and 80-90+ hours work weeks for 3-4 months leading up to tax season or year-end reports are extremely common in their field. I know many people who voluntarily work 80-100+ hours per week because overtime pay is so great (most are nurses and pharmacists) and yes, quite a few averaged 80+ hours per week for about 3+ years. When I worked in hospital and oncology, my 35-40 hours work week (unpaid lunch/breaks as per contract which I worked through but not paid for) would leave me exhausted because it was non-stop at adrenaline fueled pace the entire shift; there were many days I could not even stop for bathroom breaks or eat. I’m in research now and I occasionally worked 14+ hours days but had average 10-12 hours days. On occasion, my job may require me to work continuously for 23 days straight because of coverage (weekends average only 4-6 hours each day) but I had been doing this for 9/10 months each year for the previous 4 years. My worst days in research are so much better than my average day in hospital or oncology (stress wise). By choice, I would not go back even though I did find my jobs prior to research clinically fulfilling but the high stress level burned me out and after over a decade+ I can imagine the detrimental effects on my health if I continued.
 
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