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12-16-2011, 06:10 PM
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#1
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Dryer sheet aficionado
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 46
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Top 1%
Who is the top 1%? Any ideas? We have all these people wearing badges that say 99%.
People who have defined benefit pensions might have to consider themselves part of the 1% if they compare how much their net worth would have to be to actually be able to receive the pension for 30 years.
What do you think?
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12-16-2011, 06:20 PM
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#2
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 47,473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thoreau
Who is the top 1%? Any ideas? We have all these people wearing badges that say 99%.
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Really? How odd. I have never seen even one single person wearing a "badge that says 99%". Maybe things are different down here....
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Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities. - - H. Melville, 1851.
Happily retired since 2009, at age 61. Best years of my life by far!
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12-16-2011, 06:27 PM
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#3
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thoreau
Who is the top 1%? Any ideas? We have all these people wearing badges that say 99%.
People who have defined benefit pensions might have to consider themselves part of the 1% if they compare how much their net worth would have to be to actually be able to receive the pension for 30 years.
What do you think?
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Depends how you define 1%. It appears you are defining it in terms of net worth. If so, there are probably several 1%ers represented here. Now, if you are talking about income, the 1%ers are probably not so well represented here. The big difference is that a decent sized net worth can be built up with modest savings, half-way intelligent investing and a 30 or 40 year time frame. Earning a million a year (or whatever the 1% club starts at) is a little more difficult to do.
My big concern is that the gummint will mix up the two kinds of 1%ers. Not that I am in the "tax the rich" camp (I'm not). But there is a big difference between the lifestyle of the person who has managed to save a million over a life time and one who earns that much in a year, every year. Just sayin...
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Ko'olau's Law -
Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
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12-16-2011, 06:39 PM
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#4
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 154
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I have a pension each month, but no matter how much COL goes up, my pension stays the same. 30 yrs from now it won't be worth much, but then too I probably won't be around then.
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12-16-2011, 06:58 PM
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#5
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Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 34,056
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I've not seen a single 99% badge either, where are you seeing them?
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Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
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12-16-2011, 07:08 PM
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#6
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,894
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I am guessing that the 1% are probably hiding among the people not wearing the 99% badges, who constitute 100% of the people I encounter on a daily basis.
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12-16-2011, 07:11 PM
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#7
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREd
I am guessing that the 1% are probably hiding among the people not wearing the 99% badges, who constitute 100% of the people I encounter on a daily basis.
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On a similar theme, the recent US Census revealed that three out of four people residing in the US make up 75% of the population.
__________________
Numbers is hard
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12-16-2011, 07:13 PM
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#8
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On a hill in the Pine Barrens
Posts: 9,686
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Who are the 1%?
Who are the 1 percent? - The Washington Post
I think the 1% are the people pictured in Forbes, Fortune, etc.
The 99% are those of us who read these magazines because we never accumulate enough airline dividend miles.
Have a great last-full-weekend-of-shopping-before-christmas y'all.
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12-16-2011, 07:19 PM
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#9
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thoreau
Who is the top 1%? Any ideas? We have all these people wearing badges that say 99%.
People who have defined benefit pensions might have to consider themselves part of the 1% if they compare how much their net worth would have to be to actually be able to receive the pension for 30 years.
What do you think?
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Well, the U.S. military has about 1.9 million people (for now, anyway), so compared to the U.S. population of 300 million I guess they'd qualify as 1%.
[Insert patriotic motivational poster here.]
However if history is any guide, only about 17% of those 1.9M will actually retire from the military to receive their defined benefit pension, and the majority of that 17% will be receiving a Reserve/National Guard pension at age 60.
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Co-author (with my daughter) of “Raising Your Money-Savvy Family For Next Generation Financial Independence.”
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12-16-2011, 07:27 PM
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#10
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: The Bay Area
Posts: 2,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
On a similar theme, the recent US Census revealed that three out of four people residing in the US make up 75% of the population.
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You clever bastard you!
__________________
You may be whatever you resolve to be.
100% x 10% > 10% x 100%
Small pensions & SS cover essentials
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12-16-2011, 07:55 PM
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#11
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
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The article cited by target2019 said that "the top 1 percent of American households had a minimum income of $516,633 in 2010", based on calculations by the Tax Policy Center. This article by CNN said that the income number was $343,927 in 2009, using the latest IRS release number.
If one looks at the minimum net worth of the 1% and not their minimum income, then it is a lot tougher to determine. This article cited two different methods that yielded widely separated numbers. One was $9M and the other $1.5M!
PS. That last article said using net worth would be more meaningful than income, because a person's income may not be steady. For example, "78% of NFL players are bankrupt or in financial distress within 2 years of retirement".
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"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
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12-16-2011, 08:15 PM
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#12
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 702
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If I were in the 1% badge group, I still would prefer to wear the 99% badge.
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12-16-2011, 08:42 PM
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#13
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Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 34,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound
The article cited by target2019 said that "the top 1 percent of American households had a minimum income of $516,633 in 2010", based on calculations by the Tax Policy Center.
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I was worried about that pension thing, but I can report that my pension is least $16,633 less than the income quoted.
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Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
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12-16-2011, 09:30 PM
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#14
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thoreau
....
People who have defined benefit pensions might have to consider themselves part of the 1% if they compare how much their net worth would have to be to actually be able to receive the pension for 30 years.
What do you think?
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I think it is quite odd to associate a defined benefit pension with the 1%.
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12-16-2011, 09:32 PM
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#15
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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I don't think people who won't have the potential for huge estates to pass to their heirs are the so-called "1%". Those who don't have huge net worth apart from a generous pension have that portion of their "imputed wealth" completely wiped out when they (and probably their spouse) buys the farm.
It's certainly true, I think, that the "imputed" value of a solid DB pension is probably more than it ever has been before in my lifetime -- the "price" of buying your own "guaranteed lifetime income stream" is obvious when you look at the lousy rates on SPIAs today, and it does feel like retirement without a pension seems harder than ever in the post-WW2 era. But someone who has (say) a $60K annual pension and nothing in the bank leaves his/her heirs exactly what on their death? A lot less than most of the so-called "1%". The value of a DB pension usually goes to zero upon the passing of the pensioner and spouse.
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"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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12-16-2011, 09:40 PM
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#16
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thoreau
Who is the top 1%? Any ideas? We have all these people wearing badges that say 99%.
People who have defined benefit pensions might have to consider themselves part of the 1% if they compare how much their net worth would have to be to actually be able to receive the pension for 30 years.
What do you think?
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I have seen the 99% badges on the TV news.
We probably hit the 1% by income one or two years with big stock option exercises, market moves from individual stocks to mutual funds/ETF's, and two engineering salaries before I retired. That seemed like a common occurance within the ranks for the 1% according to one of the articles. Didn't sound like there was a majority that repeatedly hit the top 1% over many years. Probably far from 1% by wealth at any time.
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12-16-2011, 10:14 PM
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#17
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
I think it is quite odd to associate a defined benefit pension with the 1%.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29
I don't think people who won't have the potential for huge estates to pass to their heirs are the so-called "1%". Those who don't have huge net worth apart from a generous pension have that portion of their "imputed wealth" completely wiped out when they (and probably their spouse) buys the farm.
It's certainly true, I think, that the "imputed" value of a solid DB pension is probably more than it ever has been before in my lifetime -- the "price" of buying your own "guaranteed lifetime income stream" is obvious when you look at the lousy rates on SPIAs today, and it does feel like retirement without a pension seems harder than ever in the post-WW2 era. But someone who has (say) a $60K annual pension and nothing in the bank leaves his/her heirs exactly what on their death? A lot less than most of the so-called "1%". The value of a DB pension usually goes to zero upon the passing of the pensioner and spouse.
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"Worth more alive than dead."
Here's some calculation thoughts on estimating the present value of a defined-benefit pension:
“Present value” estimate of a military pension | Military Retirement & Financial Independence
__________________
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Co-author (with my daughter) of “Raising Your Money-Savvy Family For Next Generation Financial Independence.”
Author of the book written on E-R.org: "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement."
I don't spend much time here— please send a PM.
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12-17-2011, 06:48 AM
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#18
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 11,318
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For those who want to look at the "net worth" of the top 1% check out this article. I normally summarize but the topic turns out to be far too complex. Suffice it to say that it can vary from around $1.5M using an IRS multiplier approach that assumes a net worth based on income, gains and other factors (like valuing a business) to a Fed methodology more akin to our typical assets minus liabilities method (without regard to real accessibility of the $) that would pin it more in the $8-9M range. For what it is worth I haven't seen any proposals to tax wealth other than estate tax. All of the proposals for increased taxes on the rich focus on income including dividends and CGs.
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Idleness is fatal only to the mediocre -- Albert Camus
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12-17-2011, 10:11 AM
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#19
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
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The 99% signs and "badges" are all over the Occupy ______ event locations. And I take it as a their concept to show how dramatically lopsided income inequality and associated political influence is. I am sure if you're in the top 2%, you may still be a "bad guy"...
Loved the REW reply BTW - LOL!
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No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57
Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
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12-17-2011, 11:33 AM
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#20
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On a hill in the Pine Barrens
Posts: 9,686
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Wife is threatening to buy a new car if we ever get to the top 10%.
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