Uh Oh, Vanguard screwed up

[M Paquette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewer12345 Bloomberg.com: Worldwide "Executives of Vanguard Group Inc., the second-biggest U.S. manager of stock and bond mutual funds, illegally invested client assets in companies running Internet gambling businesses banned in the U.S., according to a lawsuit. Chief Investment Officer George Sauter, portfolio manager Duane Kelly and eight trustees violated U.S. racketeering laws and breached their fiduciary duties to investors by acquiring stock in the Web-based businesses, investors in two Vanguard- managed funds said in a complaint filed today in U.S. District Court in New York. " RICO suit, anyone?

This one popped up over on the Bogleheads boards as well. It turns out that some gambling businesses in certain foreign countries are public, and appear in certain broad indexes. These businesses are perfectly legal in their countries. One of the businesses is PartyGaming PLC, trading as PRTY. This stock appears in MSCI and FTSE indexes.

Since Vanguard and other index fund operators offer international index funds built around MSCI and FTSE international indexes, it follows that certain foreign businesses might appear in these index funds. That is the point, after all.

Note that Vanguard and other index fund operators are not directly conducting business with these companies. Vanguard funds are not being put down on virtual poker tables or roulette wheels. The funds have bought already issued stock in the open market.

One could just as easily go after any fund holding Nestle, InBev, or UniLever for investing in companies selling products in Cuba. (EWL, CHF, etc...)

The threatened legal action is a civil lawsuit, not a US government criminal action. There's a big difference. Pretty much anybody can sue anybody else over anything in a civil action. See the civil lawsuit filed to get the US Army to disgorge alien autopsy results, for example, or a student suing a high school teacher for waking him up in class.

[mews]

a student suing a high school teacher for waking him up in class.


Well, unless the snoring was a public health hazard, da guy had no right atall! n he wuznt gonna gv me my ckmk 4 atendunce, 2!


ta,
mews

[BunsGettingFirm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khan This raises the question of why the 'free market' mavens have banned Internet gambling and are now set up to destroy anyone with less than six degrees of separation.

My belief is that unlike the land-based gambling establishments, the Internet based ones have not made enough campaign contributions. I don't see the difference between Internet based gambling vs. any other type from a moral stand point. If congress wants to make sure the gambling odds are fair on Internet gambling sites, then do that. Don't make a distinction on slots on Indian land = good and Internet gambling = bad.

[utrecht]

PartyGaming (aka Party Poker) is not open to US citizens. They closed to Americans when the UIGEA was passed. They are committing no crimes (not that the US has jurisdiction to tell a foriegn compay what to do anyway). Why would there be a problem with Vanguard buying stock in a publicly traded company on a foreign stock exchange just because what they are doing in their country would be illegal if they were doing it in our country?

We dont show nudity in commercials but most of the world does. Whats next? Vanguard cant buy stock in companies who use nudity in their overseas commercials?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Can you provide a few examples of these commercials so that I can make a more informed decision?

[d]

sounds to me like some lawyer just saw some deep pockets

[clifp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Paquette The threatened legal action is a civil lawsuit, not a US government criminal action. There's a big difference. Pretty much anybody can sue anybody else over anything in a civil action. See the civil lawsuit filed to get the US Army to disgorge alien autopsy results, for example, or a student suing a high school teacher for waking him up in class.

Thanks for clearing this up, I missed the part of being a civil lawsuit. It just trigger my rant against the UIGEA. I am mad that RNC added a plank supporting the existing law. Despite the fact that former Senator (R. NY) D'Amato is the chief lobbyist for the group of poker players trying to over turn the law.

It looks like the civil lawsuit is just your garden variety greenmail suit, filed by ambulance chasing lawyers on the information superhighway. Once Vanguard, agrees to pay legal fees the suit will be dropped.

Now if somebody wants to post Rant #1 through 7.25 zillion about slime sucking lawyers ruining the economy, I'd feel better. Martha you want to start

[harley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny I get "this is temporarily not working" when I click the performance tab. I also get the pie charts showing your allocation giving me the wrong data and it changes every few weeks...and this with 100% vanguard funds. They cant do a 'portfolio x-ray' for their own stuff. Oh and my penfed cd's stopped reporting the right numbers until I removed and recreated their external link. It was an inconvenience for a few weeks. A fair annoyance after a month or two. Pretty much ridiculous when it runs into a four month period. I think it has to do with the amt of money involved and some of my fund choices. The wacky stuff started happening right around the time when I bought the managed payout funds. So it seems to only be affecting some portion of their customers. But I cant tell, since they've ignored several requests to tell me what the problem is. I've got a good nose for smelling rot in a company when it starts. I'm starting to smell some rot.

CFB, I know you are highly computer literate, so don't take this as an insult. But have you tried to access your Vanguard account from a different computer and gotten the same results? If nobody else is noticing the same problem, I would start the problem resolution process with the easy part, then move to the larger issue. I can't tell you how many times I've uninstalled and reinstalled software only to find out something was unplugged.

If you've already done this type of troubleshooting, then disregard this message. Just trying to save you the frustration of fighting your way through the bureaucracy.

[Alan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny Can you provide a few examples of these commercials so that I can make a more informed decision?

Dailymotion - Il videogioco che tutti vorremmo, a video from masuzzi. sony, playstation, xbox, wii, commercial

[harley]

Great commercial, but I totally missed whatever they were selling.

Even after watching it twice!

[Alan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by harley Great commercial, but I totally missed whatever they were selling. Even after watching it twice!

I guess if you are an X-Box user you might know what they are selling - as for me, I just enjoy the commercial

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by harley have you tried to access your Vanguard account from a different computer and gotten the same results?

They've acknowledged the problem (whatever it is) and say they're 'testing a fix' and that I'm super duper for being patient.

So not something on my end.

[Free To Canoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwsteve CFB AMEN! Vanguard "administers" my former MegaCorp's pension. It took four months and multiple calls to the MegaCorp Pension Mgr to get me a correct answer for my estimated payout for a couple different start date. They claim to have online estimates---only problem is that they are incorrect and partially calculate the full payout. Duh! It will (or at least should) chap them when payouts start, I am going to auto deposit in my Fidco account. Just face it, Vanguard best handles "vanilla", any variations not so good. For crying out loud, an email to your Flagship reps takes three flippin days to get a reply and that is when they are at their best. I am still debating moving it all to Fidco and being done. Let us know if you move and what you find as an option Nwsteve

I am considering joining Vanguard because of some of their funds and their populist / low fees philosophy. I currently have 3 mutual fund companies handling my assets and if I join, someone else has to go. I am unhappy with Trowe's web site problems and occasional curt service. After reading this post, it doesn't seem that Vanguard is an improvement in these areas.
Fido (Fidco) and Janus are my others. Moving out of Janus has been difficult because of DW and IRAs that are there.

Easier to move when you have somewhere good to go. Schwab seems to have a good web presence and maybe good customer service. I need to do more legwork here.

[mews]

Well, I've had no problems w/ Vanguard - I have retirement accounts and a brokerage account with them.

I've set it, I mostly forget it, and when I do visit the website, no problem, mondai nai etc. Ditto when I call.

Ta,
mews
who must be 'vanilla' although she prefers chocolate.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I havent had a problem with them before either, but then again nothing has broken before.

In my mind, a measure of customer service has little to do with how a company delivers everyday service. Its how they handle exceptions where something has gone wrong.

Past that, customer service is a pretty simple thing. Say what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, and then do that thing when you said you would. If you somehow fail to do what you said you were going to do or you dont do it by the time you said you would, apologize to the customer and offer them something to make it right.

Yet its amazing how many companies flat out fail in this very simple process.

Based on this experience, the company will not tell me what is broken, when they'll fix it, or provide me with any progress information. I just thump them once a month and they give me the same "we're working on a fix...thanks for your patience" response. That creates no platform whatsoever for a customer to be satisfied. They've also offered me nothing for my troubles. They could offer to waive some fees, give me a free investment analysis, free trades or almost any number of things that really wouldnt cost them anything.

Its only made more annoying by the fact that they keep introducing changes to the web site and as they go along, they're breaking more things while bringing about change and features that are more detrimental to me as an existing customer than helpful.

My problem at this juncture is that I've put all my eggs in the same basket. Direct deposits, checking, bill payment, investments, etc. Thats been pretty convenient up until now. Its going to be quite a hassle to take my money elsewhere.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny So much for being cheap and low-cost. Maybe this'll put a little crimp in all the web site "upgrades". So maybe this company has jumped the shark. Poor customer service, months to make basic fixes, overdoing the web site stuff, flaky funds that buy into illegal companies. I'm now considering other options.

Vanguard's giving their customers everything they're paying for.

If it's any consolation, Fidelity's website has been showing the same "news" headlines for the last five days. They're working on it, just as soon as the IT guys finish kicking rebooting Vanguard's servers.

FWIW, Fidelity's "portfolio analysis" tool appears to interpret ADRs and foreign ETFs as "domestic" if they're traded on American exchanges. They don't seem to have any interest in fixing that, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewer12345 The racketeering stuff is silly, IMO. Ownership of a publicly traded entity that is involved in a business which the feddle gummint doesn't want competition should not be grounds for getting whacked. Far more serious, IMO, is the issue of violating fiduciary duties to investors. That, ultimately, is what these guys get paid for and they dropped the ball. For this, some heads should roll.

Yeah, at least Fidelity had the class to hire a boat and throw a party...

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Eh, I expect there to be problems and inconsistencies.

I also expect the creator of the problems to resolve them in a reasonable time period or at least let me know why something is broken.

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny Put it back in your pants, FinanceDude

Quite stealing DW's favorite line..........

While this is intriguing from squeaky clean Vanguard, I doubt they are the only one.

Shoddy American Funds? Hey, even Bogle says they do good work.........

[Marquette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinanceDude Shoddy American Funds? Hey, even Bogle says they do good work.........

All the great Goog gave me for recent news was:

Quote:

"They've gotten too big," blasts former Vanguard chairman John Bogle, a longtime critic of the fund industry who now runs the Bogle Financial Markets Research Center. "I'd expect below-average performance in the years ahead."

and that was 2006

American Funds: Too big for its own good? - August 7, 2006

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marquette All the great Goog gave me for recent news was: and that was 2006 American Funds: Too big for its own good? - August 7, 2006

Its in the pile somewhere, I think it was around 2002 or 2003. Funny he says American Funds is too big, but doesn't think HIS funds are too big..............