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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 04:20 PM   #61
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

How about sell everything, liquidate the business, and put the money towards the pension fund?
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 04:22 PM   #62
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Its never that simple in an ongoing corporation. UAL has cash flow and pays its bond service. *There could be at least a pay back program over time or some future trigger to make these retirees at least partially whole rather than total expungement of the pension commitment. * *(Yes, I know that will never happen. *The old adage that a thief can make more money running a bank rather than robbing one rings true with corporations as well)
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 06:48 PM   #63
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Where would you suggest UAL get's the money to pay for these pensions?* They can't afford them!*
I haven't seen the balance sheets. Maybe you have. What can they afford? What other creditors are being told there's not enough money and how much are they losing? Can they afford the planes? the $10 per person meals? the executive salaries and perks?

I don't understand how so many people can buy into the fact that it is the pilot's pensions that there's not enough money for. Or buy into the idea that pensions are obsolete so we might as well let companies renig on them. I think exorbitant salaries for incompetent executives are obsolete. Companies should just stop paying them. And if there's not enough money for the pension, surely there's not enough money for the salaries of the folks who f#cked up the pension investments.
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 06:59 PM   #64
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Your place in line - and who gets anything - is determined by the existing body of law governing such things - fair or unfair.

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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 07:31 PM   #65
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Auh Jaaaaa...


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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 09:31 PM   #66
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Woo hoo Bum...CH is going on a while tonight?
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 10:17 PM   #67
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Looks like many heavy industries are dying on the vine - cars, planes, steel etc. One view on GM is that they will get a government bail out because it would be cheaper than having to bail out the pension plan (aka United Airlines x10) if they go belly up. JoJo
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 10:36 PM   #68
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by - SG
I think exorbitant salaries for incompetent executives are obsolete. Companies should just stop paying them. And if there's not enough money for the pension, surely there's not enough money for the salaries of the folks who f#cked up the pension investments.
I agree. My wife works for this company. The CEO makes too much money that it's simply ridiculous. How many workers could be supported by William W. McGuire's $42,802,127 pay package?

42 Nobel prize winners
128 average university presidents
107 U.S. presidents
190 AFL-CIO presidents
396 Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
1677 average workers
3,995 minimum-wage earners
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-13-2005, 11:01 PM   #69
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

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Originally Posted by unclemick2
Your place in line - and who gets anything - is determined by the existing body of law governing such things - fair or unfair.

Well . . . kind of. There are laws and there is the interpretation of the laws by the courts. I think it is the interpretation that is at issue here. This is not a simple case where you read the laws and say, "Yep, it says here in paragraph 6 that it's legal to screw the pilots and let everyone else go free." There are plenty of people with legal training that believe there is another interpretation of the law that should be made. But even if that were not true, the laws are made by government, and the government is voted on by us. We are ultimately responsible when injustice becomes part of the legal process. Acceptance of grossly unfair laws or rulings is irresponsible.
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 05:01 AM   #70
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky
I agree. My wife works for this company. The CEO makes too much money that it's simply ridiculous. How many workers could be supported by William W. McGuire's $42,802,127 pay package?

42 Nobel prize winners
128 average university presidents
107 U.S. presidents
190 AFL-CIO presidents
396 Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
1677 average workers
3,995 minimum-wage earners
I disagree completely. Mr. McQuire (assuming he broke no laws)
is entitled to every penny, and I don't give a flying *+###@
how many others could be supported on the money. Completely
irrelevant in a capitalist system.

JG
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 05:05 AM   #71
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by - SG
government is voted on by us.* We are ultimately responsible when injustice becomes part of the legal process.*
I accept no "responsibility". I don't vote and thus the government is
making law and promoting injustice without my support.

JG
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 08:44 AM   #72
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

This is mostly for LEX. Fraud is very hard to prove. As for me, I always come down on the side of the corporations vs. government.
Maybe that's because I owned and ran a few companies. I think the deeper reason is that I have no fear of any corporation messing up my life.
Now, the government (talking all levels here) can and does, daily.
I am not even bothered by the "proven" corporate crimes.
I believe about half of the convictions/prosecutions were wrong
(thinking Martha S. here - there are others). Compared to what is
foisted on us by the government (for our own good don't you know?)
corporate misdeeds are a speck in the galaxy. And, BTW,
if I did vote, the four (4) Gs would work just fine for me if
the GOP would stick to them. Limp-wristed wimps with no cojones!

EOR..........I have to cut the grass.

Elvis has left the building..............

JG
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 02:50 PM   #73
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
I accept no "responsibility". I don't vote and thus the government is
making law and promoting injustice without my support.
Actually John, they have your complete support. By not voting you are allowing whoever gets voted in to do whatever they wish.

What you're doing is the equivalent of letting a blind person walk in front of a fast moving bus without saying anything. Its easy for a morally shallow person to say they have no responsibility, but in fact, you do.
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Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 03:34 PM   #74
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050514/...calendar_girls
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Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 05:38 PM   #75
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Nice calendar...
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 06:17 PM   #76
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

JG,

Here is the link from Harvard Business Journal about excessive CEO compensation:
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=2...ate_governance

Mr. Mcquire is the CEO of United Health Care group - an HMO organization.

Here are some key points:
- CEO compensation is a major expense even for large corporations.
- No correlation exists between CEO pay and corporate performance, such as the increases in share prices and the growth of profitability.
- The enormous increase at the top hurts workers at the middle or bottom.
- No one has ever produced evidence that exorbitant compensation is essential for a CEO to look after the interests of the shareholders
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 07:10 PM   #77
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky
JG,

Here is the link from Harvard Business Journal about excessive CEO compensation:
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=2...ate_governance

Mr. Mcquire is the CEO of United Health Care group - an HMO organization.

Here are some key points:
- CEO compensation is a major expense even for large corporations.
- No correlation exists between CEO pay and corporate performance, such as the increases in share prices and the growth of profitability.
- The enormous increase at the top hurts workers at the middle or bottom.
- No one has ever produced evidence that exorbitant compensation is essential for a CEO to look after the interests of the shareholders
Hi Spanky! I wouldn't argue with any of this, except I think Mr.
McQuire should get all he can get. That's capitalism! Do you want the government to tell the board how much they should pay him?
In that way lies madness. Unfortunately, that's where we are
headed............

JG
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 07:20 PM   #78
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by th
Actually John, they have your complete support.* By not voting you are allowing whoever gets voted in to do whatever they wish.

What you're doing is the equivalent of letting a blind person walk in front of a fast moving bus without saying anything.* Its easy for a morally shallow person to say they have no responsibility, but in fact, you do.
By not voting I am making a legitimate political statement. I intend to
NEVER vote again. I'm 60 years old and voting has been a waste
of my time. I may be a slow learner, but eventually I catch on.

JG
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 09:13 PM   #79
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Do you want the government to tell the board how much they should pay him?
In that way lies madness. Unfortunately, that's where we are
headed............

JG
JG,

No, government intervention is not the solution. The owners (or institutional shareholders) must play an active role in the governance and management. They must hold the board and management accoutable for results in the interests of shareholders. Paying themselves excessive compensation, cooking the books, misuse of company funding for persoanl use, etc. are not serving the interests of shareholders.

Spanky
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....
Old 05-14-2005, 09:35 PM   #80
 
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Re: United Airlines wants to just 'Forget' Pension Promise.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Hi Spanky!* I wouldn't argue with any of this, except I think Mr.
McQuire should get all he can get.* That's capitalism!* Do you want the government to tell the board how much they should pay him?
In that way lies madness.* *Unfortunately, that's where we are
headed............

JG
Well, you seem to be happy having the Government decide whether a woman should get an abortion instead of her doctor and herself.

And you seem to be satisfied that the Government gets to decide which Sex can Marry and have complete civil rights.

And you also seem to be happy to let the Government to decide when to end the life of a terminally ill patient.

So yeah you are correct! - This does seem the way we are headed. And which political party would you blame for these intrusions?

I really don't mind the government intervening in Business Monoplies, and corporate fraud and such. But, I get a bit sqeamish when they start intervening in Social Affairs.
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