update on Wellesley and Intermediate-Term Bond fund

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I'm also curious about your asset mix. Why did you choose the bond fund?

There's an extremely important concept when dealing with asset allocation (AA): you need to look at the entirety of your portfolio, not an individual asset class.

To put it nicely, your AA is less than ideal. If your AA are these two funds, then you own way more bonds than equities, so you are doomed to less than ideal returns. Especially in this environment when everybody seems to agree that its not a good time to own bonds (return free risk!).

Bonds can be important in your overall AA, even in this environment, IF you have a properly built AA. Your current stock/bond ratio with 50% bonds and 50% Wellesley is ~ 20% stock/80% bonds.

Now on the other hand, if you bought Wellesley by itself, instead of buying other fixed income producing assets, I can see the benefit. Wellesley will most likely give you better performance than a bond fund, cds, with slightly more volatility. For me, that's a reasonable trade-off.

But I'm still puzzled as to why you own the bond fund. I would argue that you would have been better off buying CDs (isn't that ironic?), especially in the way you've constructed your portfolio.

If you are trying to run an experiment on total return investing, then why not buy a Target Retirement Fund that has about a 60/40 mix and see how it does over the next few years?

But maybe that wasn't your goal. Actually, I'm not quite sure what your goal was, maybe you can repeat it to us or send us a link? This is where an investment personal statement is helpful (IPS in bogleheads world). I've never done one, but it can help to determine what your goals are and then build the appropriate portfolio based on those goals.

And one more note based on a personal experience. I bought a sh*tload of equities at about the worse time possibly: 2008 prior to the crash. The values of those assets three months later were significantly lower. I didn't sell and since then, the assets have recovered their value and then some. My point is that 3 months is a small time frame when dealing with assets with volatility. You need to know what your timeframe is and build your AA accordingly. Then you can look at it yearly and see if it's meeting its objective.

I hope this was helpful information. I think it's interesting and good that your are looking at other asset classes beyond CDs, but you would be well served to understand the theory behind this type of investing so your expectations are properly set. And keep in mind, it's not for everyone. There's a good reason why most people are unable to do this. I know a lot of smart people that can't figure it out. It's not hard, but it does take an understanding of portfolio management.

And for those skeptics out there, this is one reason I love this forum. This method works better than anything else. Need proof? Look at the people posting here. How many people have retired early and are using this method? Actually, beyond having a sh*tload of money, I don't see any other alternatives that work (and yes, I'll include those that actively manage their money in this group - at least the ones here), or at least I haven't found that forum yet. :)
 
@kiki, deep background: obgyn is extremely risk averse and was invested 100% in CDs and perhaps fixed annuities, so has not experienced any loss of capital. For someone like that, no amount of equities may be a good asset allocation. These investments that obgyn made are their first baby steps into the big bad world of possible losses and investing in general. Before this, it has all been about savings in can't-lose CDs.
 
A couple things Ob. I was aware of your dive into Wellesley, but was surprised about your dive into the intermediate term bond fund.

I think "dive" is a little strong since he probably has well under 0.01% of his money in this bond fund. "dip his toe" is probably a better description.


Ob,
I think you have demonstrated to everyone what you keep on telling us, that you are extremely risk averse and should not have any investments in places where the principal is at risk, regardless of how low that risk may be.

Thank you for entertaining us, I look forward to the next installments of your investing experiences :)
 
I think "dive" is a little strong since he probably has well under 0.01% of his money in this bond fund. "dip his toe" is probably a better description......

:ROFLMAO: Right you are - "dip" may have been a better word and I can't think of anything smaller than a dip.
 
I would buy more, especially of the bond fund. At the very least, the couple of hundred dollars needed to get it back up to $10,000.
 
....and people ask, 'should I help ______ with his/her finances?' You can be sure your name will be at the top of the list when the quarterly statements come in. :ROFLMAO:

But seriously, my 3 eggs are in different baskets. I don't see that changing anytime soon. If an investment is mentioned, I'll do my own research and decide the proper course.
 
Cheap way to learn volitity really bothers you. I guess, either go with what you know, or be uncomfortable. Only you know the right answer.

FYI I have 100 shares of AAPL with a cost basis of $595. It looks better at 500 today than 400 a couple of months ago.

I'm not meaning anything derogatory, my Sister and BIL have the same risk tolerance that you appear to. We are all unique!

MRG
 
Obgyn,

I have wrestled with the same risk aversion for most of my life. Each time I invested in the market, only to see a crash (1987, 2000, 2007) I would decide I'm fed up and pull out. However, what I've learned over the years is that each time I pulled out and gave up, it turned out to be the best time to buy more, not sell what I have. It is only recently that I put my money back in the market, but I'm hoping to have the discipline to keep it there for good. Watching your hard earned money drop significantly in value is not easy. But keeping money in very low yield investments simply won't keep up with inflation and is a losing proposition. You're about the same age as me, which means you have many years to go. Don't worry about five months of returns. It's a very small blip of time relative to the rest of your life. You will be fine. Just hang in there and maintain whatever asset allocation you feel comfortable with, and ignore the daily gyrations.
 
Wellesley is 60% bonds, and interest rates rose over the time period you cite. Over that same time period the S&P 500 was up about 8%. If you look at the performance of the equity portion of Wellesley, I'm sure you will find it was up (that is why Wellesley was down considerably less than the intermediate-term bond fund). Effectively, of the 20K you invested in the those two funds, about 80% was in bonds.
 
This is very sensitive to date due to short term fluctuation. I don't know what date you are using.

In March I had $118,351.68 in Wellesley and the March divided was reinvested.

The June dividend was not reinvested and was $969.42.

Current balance is $118,724.53.

So if you add the not reinvested dividends I am at $119,693.95 compared to $118,351.68 in March.

That said, it is not a good idea to be determining whether something is a good investment based upon these kinds of short term fluctuations.
 
If I were a market timer, I would sell both and buy a U.S. total stock index fund and CDs. As I am not a market timer, I might still do that.

Other than routine re-allocations I have been a buy and hold person for ever, but am now shifting away from intermediate and long term bonds and recently divested myself of my intermediate term fund and into shorter duration.
 
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I can't think of anything smaller than a dip.
A mild flirtation? A sideways glance? A casual flutter? A fleeting thought? The merest of suggestions? A faint tickle? OK, now I'm being flippant :LOL:

Obgyn - I couldn't sleep last night and saw your post before anyone else had replied. I was tempted to reply then but was feeling a bit sleepy and knew that by the time I awoke again, there would be many responses, most from people with more experience and knowledge than myself. Everyone here has said the same things I would have said to you, and then some.

Regarding Wellesley - as others have said, worrying about the return over the last 5 months just isn't the right approach for a fund containing a mixture of bonds and equities. Have you seen the performance chart showing the hypothetical growth of $10,000 over the last 10 years?

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundId=0027&FundIntExt=INT

It looks pretty good to me. Notice how the line doesn't go straight up - there are some down bits too. You're just in one of them right now. Don't worry - that "down bit" will turn into an "up bit" at some point. This next page linked below has a chart showing the performance of Wellesley over the last 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, and 10 years. Select the 1 year option and you will see the "down bit" you got caught in. It's going to go up again so as MichaelB said, have a beer (or a margarita).

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundId=0027&FundIntExt=INT#tab=1

One other thing I'll mention. You've said in this thread that you don't have time to read newsletters. You have also indicated that the only places you go for your financial education are this place and Bogleheads. Actually, those are two pretty good places. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the overall impression I get from your comments (as well as your posting behavior) is that you're a very busy guy who doesn't have much time to do a lot of in-depth reading and learning. It almost seems to me as if you expect us to tell you what to do, and then explain everything to you, because you don't have the time to search out this information for yourself.

Over the years, as I became more and more interested in my personal finances, I spent a great deal of time reading. There were a few books, and a lot of time spent on The Motley Fool back when it was a free site. Then I found this forum. I'm a slow learner and will never be comfortable researching and investing in individual companies myself. A simple portfolio consisting of just 3 low-cost passive index funds is my style, combined with a basic knowledge of asset allocation, the nature of risk, and the tax consequences of what I'm doing. That is all I have learned - but it's enough for me. An important component of my learning was understanding the nature of risk when owning investments that go up and down. As I, and others, have said to you before, volatility can be very unsettling, but the longer your time frame is, and the more experience you get under your belt, the more you learn to see short-term volatility for what it is - short-term volatility (surprisingly!)

To be perfectly honest, if you don't have the time, or are not willing to spend the time that is required for all this stuff to sink in and take root, you should not be in anything other than the fixed income investments that currently make up the overwhelming majority of your portfolio. If you're truly comfortable with the fact that they will lose purchasing power over time to inflation (as you have indicated), then continue on the course you are already on, and don't give equities a second thought. If, however, you are interested in learning how to put together a portfolio from which you can draw an income which will keep pace with inflation and, just as importantly, want to learn a bit about risk assessment so that you feel comfortable with that portfolio, then there's plenty of good reading right here on this forum as well as on Bogleheads and the many great books that have been recommended and talked about right here on this forum.

Best of luck!
 
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@kiki, deep background: obgyn is extremely risk averse and was invested 100% in CDs and perhaps fixed annuities, so has not experienced any NOMINAL loss of capital. For someone like that, no amount of equities may be a good asset allocation. These investments that obgyn made are their first baby steps into the big bad world of possible losses and investing in general. Before this, it has all been about savings in can't-lose CDs.

FIFY
 
If that little blip made you nervous you would have been on life support during the 2008 melt down ! As the saying goes "If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen ".
 
To be perfectly honest, if you don't have the time, or are not willing to spend the time that is required for all this stuff to sink in and take root, you should not be in anything other than the fixed income investments that currently make up the overwhelming majority of your portfolio. If you're truly comfortable with the fact that they will lose purchasing power over time to inflation (as you have indicated), then continue on the course you are already on, and don't give equities a second thought. If, however, you are interested in learning how to put together a portfolio from which you can draw an income which will keep pace with inflation and, just as importantly, want to learn a bit about risk assessment so that you feel comfortable with that portfolio, then there's plenty of good reading right here on this forum as well as on Bogleheads and the many great books that have been recommended and talked about right here on this forum.

Best of luck!
It seems to me that fixed income investments take time as well. CDs come due and need to be replaced, annuities need to be researched and understood (hopefully!), and likewise with muni bonds. Whereas some people just go heavy into Wellesley, or target funds, or a simple mix of Total (US) Stock/Total International Stock/Total Bond). In the latter, take a look once a year and rebalance. No need to even do that in the other two since they are self-balancing. It really is that basic and shouldn't require the hand-holding of an adviser, though I think the OP may be using one anyway.
 
Good grief Moemg, the thought of Obgyn with a classic 60/40 portfolio during the last market meltdown almost doesn't bear thinking about.

Now those would have been some long threads...... :D
 
The earliest entry in my investments in Quicken is a 1/18/93 purchase of Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Investor shares for $10.93. They later converted to Admiral shares which trade today at $42.57.

So that would be a 6.83% annual return only based on the price increase, ignoring dividends and capital gains distributions.

The bad news is that it is in my IRA so when i receive it it will be ordinary income, but if I play my cards right the tax rate on that ordinary income will be 15% or less.
 
Where to start?

A) I don't recall any poster being 'critical of your conservative stance'. It was pointed out (time and time again) that a 100% fixed income portfolio historically has a low success rate with a 30 year time frame at a 3.5% WR - only 79.3%. An AA of anywhere from 30% to 85% equities however, provided a 100% success rate. That's not 'critical' - that's information. And it gets worse at 40 years - 27% success with all fixed, and 98% success with higher equities (~ 50/50 to 65/35).


B) You are able to track the daily 'sell' prices of these funds. Have you tried that with your other holdings? They may be down also - but you may not be aware of it.

C) Where are you getting your numbers from? According to daily prices at finance.yahoo, Wellesley is up since 3/5/2013. NAV is up, and up even higher when you include dividends (which you must).

D) I have no idea on the bond fund you mention. Those are bonds - it doesn't change your AA.

E) Irony. It is the fixed income side that is holding Wellesley back. If you look at equities separately, you'd see that a broad index of equities (VTSAX) is up over 10% in that time frame . Equities RULE!!!! :LOL:

Here's a link to a chart that includes DIVS. I couldn't hit 3/5/2013 with their slider - is 3/7/2103 close enough?

PerfCharts - StockCharts.com - Free Charts

F) As others have said - this is a long term deal. Even if you had a 1% paper loss in 5 months, ignore it. If that is going to scare you and make you sell low - than stick to 100% fixed, but run it through FIRECalc to see if you can get by with a < 2% WR. Because that's all history says you can take over 40 years.

-ERD50
 
Why does anyone care about what OBGYN does?? He/She makes a ton of money as a Dr. and can afford to buy nothing but CD's. The rest of us must make do with equities. Let's see, a $1 in 1980's $1 is still a dollar. A $1 in the 1980's S&P is about $15. Take a pick.
 
Why does anyone care about what OBGYN does?? He/She makes a ton of money as a Dr. and can afford to buy nothing but CD's. The rest of us must make do with equities. Let's see, a $1 in 1980's $1 is still a dollar. A $1 in the 1980's S&P is about $15. Take a pick.

Not so much. What is bothersome is the idea that equities don't work. Sure, you have to accept volatility, but that's part of the deal. As you say, unless you have a lot of cash, then you can't afford the CD route. But honesty, even if you did have the cash a new better, why would you go with CD's (and deferred annuities).

Myself, I'll call it quits with a lot less than Obgyn and I believe our our success rates won't be much different. To each their own.
 
Why does anyone care about what OBGYN does?? He/She makes a ton of money as a Dr. and can afford to buy nothing but CD's. The rest of us must make do with equities. Let's see, a $1 in 1980's $1 is still a dollar. A $1 in the 1980's S&P is about $15. Take a pick.

Personally, I don't. But he keeps posting.
 
@kiki, deep background: obgyn is extremely risk averse and was invested 100% in CDs and perhaps fixed annuities, so has not experienced any loss of capital. For someone like that, no amount of equities may be a good asset allocation. These investments that obgyn made are their first baby steps into the big bad world of possible losses and investing in general. Before this, it has all been about savings in can't-lose CDs.

I'm a long time lurker, so I've had the benefit of reading Obgyn's posts without commenting. What I find puzzling with this latest post is, what's his goal?

If you're going to build a portfolio, figure out your goal and then build the appropriate portfolio (AA). What he's done is pick two funds to build a 20/80 mix, using two assets that aren't good (using nicer language).

Nobody would recommend this. Based on this, I could only assume he's done this to deliberately prove that equities are a bad investment (all 20% of them - heck, he probably lost more in bonds than equities). But he's selected a short time-frame with an inappropriate allocation. More power to him if he feels this proves a point, but I'd suggest he read the responses to this thread and ponder what he's trying to accomplish.

In the end, each their own!
 
I'm a long time lurker, so I've had the benefit of reading Obgyn's posts without commenting. What I find puzzling with this latest post is, what's his goal?

If you're going to build a portfolio, figure out your goal and then build the appropriate portfolio (AA). What he's done is pick two funds to build a 20/80 mix, using two assets that aren't good (using nicer language).

Nobody would recommend this. Based on this, I could only assume he's done this to deliberately prove that equities are a bad investment (all 20% of them - heck, he probably lost more in bonds than equities). But he's selected a short time-frame with an inappropriate allocation. More power to him if he feels this proves a point, but I'd suggest he read the responses to this thread and ponder what he's trying to accomplish.

In the end, each their own!

The OP is trying to prove that equities can go down in +/- 3 months vs go up eternally. Like none of us know that. I think the OP should just stick with Cash/Short Term CD's and go on their way.
 
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