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Old 10-20-2010, 09:40 PM   #61
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In 2009 the percentage of taxpaying eligible citizens that paid no Federal tax was 43%, and had they been deprived of the right to vote, the percentage of folks paying Federal tax would have gone up in 2010.

But, I do think people fixate on those paying "Federal taxes" as those who file 1040s or whatever and they miss that lots of folks pay FICA.

FICA should go into a separate pot. Put the SS portion of FICA into Treasuries with the taxpayer's tax ID attached and pay that person his/her due when SS retirement age. It was made into law as a retirement, survivor, disability fund, not a Congressional hog trough.

Put the Medicare portion into a yearly HSA type fund and make it available to the contributor at age 65 as their healthcare security net.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:06 PM   #62
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You mean paid no income tax, which is a totally different issue.

Since the proceeds of social security, as we all know, are co mingled in the budget it is deceitful on the part of politicians to suggest that those who pay one tax are somehow more deserving than those who pay another.

What you describe is essentially what happens. in either case the issue is how the bonds will be paid when they come due.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:21 PM   #63
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Elimination of co mingling = elimination of political deceit tool
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:29 PM   #64
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FYI,
I think people now 50 will get the current SS benefits...
This is the opinion of a friend with good ties in senior political circles. His exact words were its viewed as a "contract".
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:12 PM   #65
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HL Hunt suggested that the right to vote should be linked to the payment of taxes. For some reason I can't quite put my finger on he was dismissed as a crank.
Perhaps I can help guide your finger. The poll tax has an unhappy history of being a means of enforcing racism. Trying to revive the idea in this day and age just has no currency at all. We've gotten beyond that.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:15 PM   #66
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Perhaps I can help guide your finger. The poll tax has an unhappy history of being a means of enforcing racism. Trying to revive the idea in this day and age just has no currency at all. We've gotten beyond that.
While I don't disagree with this, I think we're talking about apples and oranges. A "poll tax" as was historically levied to keep blacks from the polls (until they were outlawed) isn't the same thing as suggesting that only those with a "positive" income tax burden can vote.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:50 AM   #67
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Seeing it coming and being able to do something about it are two very different things.

I can vote third party to make a statement. Or I can vote for either of the two major parties, neither of which are doing anything to remedy this. And I can write my Representative and get a patronizing "thank you for your interest while we do whatever we damn well please" form letter style response.

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Individually people can hide in a crowd and point the finger of blame at everyone else. But collectively, there is no one to blame but ourselves.

Even if someone didn't vote for the system, they benefited from it. They enjoyed the higher government benefits and the lower general taxes it produced. At the very least they can admit that they already consumed benefits roughly equal to the taxes they paid and that, as a result, they aren't entitled to anything more. But maybe, just maybe, it's actually time to man-up and take responsibility for the mess we created over the past several decades and stop demanding full payment on promises we made to ourselves that we collectively never bothered to adequately finance.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:27 AM   #68
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If neither choice offers a solution, there really isn't much point. I think a lot of people do it for "bragging rights" - "I voted!".

-ERD50
I don't know about a lot of people, but I vote because it is my civic duty as a citizen of a republic.
It may be futile to vote for a third party, but if that is the only one making sense, that is who gets my vote.
The reason 30% of our citizens can select the president (and even less for representatives) is that only 60% or less can be bothered to take an hour out of their day one day every couple of years to vote
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:42 AM   #69
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While I don't disagree with this, I think we're talking about apples and oranges. A "poll tax" as was historically levied to keep blacks from the polls (until they were outlawed) isn't the same thing as suggesting that only those with a "positive" income tax burden can vote.
Purely on the word Poll

Poll is an old word for the "Head"

A poll tax was a Head tax. you had to pay your head tax to vote
so it was called a poll tax and the word poll was transformed inot the vote itself.

So any tax which is levied "per capita" is a poll tax without any regard to voting.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:49 AM   #70
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Elimination of co mingling = elimination of political deceit tool
possibly, but your proposal does not have that effect.

All projections of property or wealth or obligations into the future depend on both a functioning social system and a meaningful economy. It is "deceitful" for politicians to suggest for example that corporate stock is somehow better than the SS bonds held by the system. both only have value if the econolmy overall is functioning
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:57 AM   #71
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Exactly! All the A, B, C, logic pales in comparison to WTF can a taxpayer do. Politicians are not elected by taxpayers. They are elected by the 47% who pay no Federal tax at all in 2009. The same folks who pay almost no Social Security taxes into the system. The same folks who get most of the tax breaks.

The only solution is to separate the taxes in General Fund, Social Security and Medicare and let each system run it's own budget and set payout rates to match a balanced budget.

Start, NOW.

The voting is why Venezuela has Chavez.... he keeps paying out to the poor and they keep voting him in... I hope we are not like them... but in a way we are....
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:05 AM   #72
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You mean paid no income tax, which is a totally different issue.

Since the proceeds of social security, as we all know, are co mingled in the budget it is deceitful on the part of politicians to suggest that those who pay one tax are somehow more deserving than those who pay another.

What you describe is essentially what happens. in either case the issue is how the bonds will be paid when they come due.

It really doesn't matter if they were comingled or not... the only difference is the reported defecit...


If you comingled, and you say you have a $100 defecit... with $20 of excess SS... the total spending was $120... with an IOU to SS...

Now, do not comingle... you have a $120 defecit... but that $20 has to be invested somewhere... which will be Treasuries... sooo, total spending is $120 with an IOU to SS...

Talking about putting money aside etc. is meaningless unless we have an option to invest that money where we want.... any other way is the same in the end...
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:08 AM   #73
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Just as a FYI.... they had a news segment last night on TV about the British budget... the important thing that was said was in their system the budget does NOT come up for a vote.. the Prime Minister and his group has full control over the budget... so, no earmarks, pork, etc. etc. if they do not want it..
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:26 AM   #74
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The voting is why Venezuela has Chavez.... he keeps paying out to the poor and they keep voting him in... I hope we are not like them... but in a way we are....
This is the Hard Core of Freedom" by Elmer T. Peterson in The Daily Oklahoman (9 December 1951): "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

What family do you think will be the USA's monarchy?
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:27 AM   #75
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On a related note: why are French high school students rioting over the decision to raise the retirement age from 60 to 62?

Reactions To Austerity: Passivity In The UK, Strikes And Riots In France | NEWS JUNKIE POST
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:31 AM   #76
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On a related note: why are French high school students rioting over the decision to raise the retirement age from 60 to 62?

Reactions To Austerity: Passivity In The UK, Strikes And Riots In France | NEWS JUNKIE POST
Because they don't want their parents retired and at home during the day to discover what a "student" actually does: skip school and have parties at home with sex and drugs. They're angry because they want the age moved to 70.

I'd riot also.
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:45 AM   #77
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I didn't know the right to vote was determined by whether you paid any federal income tax.
And that is the biggest part of the problem.
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:58 AM   #78
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In the UK, elected officials have almost no power because the real power is the civil service heads. In case you have never watched "Yes, Minister" then I'd recommend it highly, evidently even Obama watches it, heh heh.



too funny.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:02 AM   #79
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Social Security running out of money!

"She imagines a new kind of guaranteed account, where the government would guarantee that beneficiaries receive a certain rate of return on their investments."

Well, I'm just a step ahead I guess, way to go Pie Floater.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:06 AM   #80
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It really doesn't matter if they were comingled or not... the only difference is the reported defecit...


If you comingled, and you say you have a $100 defecit... with $20 of excess SS... the total spending was $120... with an IOU to SS...

Now, do not comingle... you have a $120 defecit... but that $20 has to be invested somewhere... which will be Treasuries... sooo, total spending is $120 with an IOU to SS...

Talking about putting money aside etc. is meaningless unless we have an option to invest that money where we want.... any other way is the same in the end...
That is an important point and I hope people understood it.

Social Security is NOT part of the Federal Budget. Technically, SS is a separate fund and is NOT co-mingled with the Federal Budget. Right now, Social Security more than pays for itself and runs a surplus every year.

So what happens when SS has extra money in its pockets? They obviously don't want to keep it in cash. Instead, they buy interest bearing Treasury Notes, so the money can get a little interest income.

Now that's where the creative accounting comes in. Suddenly Congress has some extra revenue from the Treasury notes that SS has purchased. Congress can use this money just like it was any other form of income, but the debt doesn't show up on the Federal Deficit. It is free money to spend with a IOU to SS. But anyway you cut the cake, future tax payers are still must pay the money that Congress has borrowed from the SS fund. So call it co-mingle or call it separate fund, the same future tax payer must come up with the money to pay the debt when the time comes for SS to pay out future benefits.

SS would be better off buying casinos in Las Vegas as an investment so Congress can't get its hands on it. But the law prohibits that.
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