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We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 09:40 AM   #1
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We're still too exuberant

We're still too exuberant

The man who wrote the book on irrational investing says we haven't learned our lesson. I believe him.

December 17, 2005: 9:00 AM EST
By Geoffrey Colvin, FORTUNE senior editor-at-large


NEW YORK (FORTUNE) - One of the most important lessons you can ever learn about markets is also one of the easiest to forget: Just because prices are more reasonable than they were doesn't mean they're reasonable. I'm sorry to report that it's absolutely the lesson to keep in mind now that the Dow has hit 42-year highs and crept back up near 11,000.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/16/mark...2605/index.htm

I can envision Greg doing his little "happy gloomy dance" . :P

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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 09:46 AM   #2
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Isn't PE10 skewed high because of the bubble?
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 09:54 AM   #3
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Wahoo:
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 11:12 AM   #4
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire
Isn't PE10 skewed high because of the bubble?
I think you misunderstand how PE/10 is calculated. It is today's Price, divided by the average of 10 trailing years of earnings.

Ha
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 11:13 AM   #5
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Re: We're still too exuberant

If the S&P 500 were to trade at 15 times its average trailing 10-year earnings, it would be valued at a current PE of 8.8x and just 7.6x next year's expected earnings. *That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me, especially when the all-time low PE is somewhere around 6.7x.


Edit for computational error
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 11:16 AM   #6
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Re: We're still too exuberant

I am trying to understand what your point is.

Ha
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 12:49 PM   #7
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
I think you misunderstand how PE/10 is calculated. It is today's Price, divided by the average of 10 trailing years of earnings.

Ha
Oops, brain fart... Shouldn't post without adequate caffeination!!

Still, it seems counterintuitive. Thought the inflated PEs were from bubble prices, not depressed earnings. Sounds like a research project for tomorrow, when I'm at work.
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 12:55 PM   #8
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
I am trying to understand what your point is.

Ha
Mine?

The suggestion of the article attached to the original post was that the right way to value the market is by comparing the current market price to its trailing 10-year average earnings. *Apparently, the average P/E 10-yr trailing is 15x (don't have all the numbers here to confirm that but it seems high). *The point of the article is that today's market is really overvalued because it trades well above 15x on a trailing 10-yr earnings basis. *

My point was that if the market currently traded at 15x 10-yr avg earnings it would also trade at about 8.8x this year's current earnings and 7.6x next year's expected earnings. *These multiples seem way too low to me making me question the validity of the original suggestion. *

a) Current S&P 500 Price* * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * *1,267
b) LTM 9/30/05 Earnings* * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * 74.19
c) Current P/E (a */b)* * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * ** 17.0x

d) Avg 10-yr S&P 500 Earnings* * * ** * * ** * * * * * * 43.41
e) S&P 500 & 15x 10-yr avg Earnings (d * 15)** * * * *651

f) Current PE if S&P 500 traded at 651 (e / b)* ** * * * 8.8x


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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 12:57 PM   #9
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire
Oops, brain fart... Shouldn't post without adequate caffeination!!

Still, it seems counterintuitive. Thought the inflated PEs of the 90s were from bubble prices, not depressed earnings. Sounds like a research project for tomorrow, when I'm at work.*
I must be expressing myself poorly. Inflated PEs were from bubble prices. But neither yesterday's prices nor PEs play any part in today's PE-10 as defined by Robert Shiller. Only today's price, and yesterday's (10 years of yesterdays to be exact) average earnings.

There is an additional subtle point. Many ( including Warren Buffet) think that the profit margins and ROIs of the 90s were maximum, and unlikely to be sustained for long.

Ha
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 01:05 PM   #10
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Re: We're still too exuberant

No, it's me.........

If earnings were not depressed, then PE10 shouldn't be out of line much with PE; apparently, though my bunion doesn't coincide with the "facts"!! :P
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 01:07 PM   #11
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Quote:
Originally Posted by . . . Yrs to Go
Mine?

The suggestion of the article attached to the original post was that the right way to value the market is by comparing the current market price to its trailing 10-year average earnings. *Apparently, the average P/E 10-yr trailing is 15x (don't have all the numbers here to confirm that but it seems high). *The point of the article is that today's market is really overvalued because it trades well above 15x on a trailing 10-yr earnings basis. *

My point was that if the market currently traded at 15x 10-yr avg earnings it would also trade at about 9.7x this year's current earnings and 7.6x next year's expected earnings. *These multiples seem way too low to me making me question the validity of the original suggestion. *

a) Current S&P 500 Price* * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * *1,267
b) LTM 9/30/05 Earnings* * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * 67.00
c) Current P/E (a */b)* * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * ** 18.9x

d) Avg 10-yr S&P 500 Earnings* * * ** * * ** * * * * * * 43.41
e) S&P 500 & 15x 10-yr avg Earnings (d * 15)** * * * *651

f) Current PE if S&P 500 traded at 651 (e / b)* ** * * * 9.7x
Thanks for the clear reply. I see what yoiu mean. As to the validity of Shiller's assertion, I have looked at his data, and it is historically valid. Of course that doesn't mean it is now. One possible expanation for the oddity that yoiu mention is that earnings growth and this years earnings have perhaps been unusually strong. How that should be interpreted depends on one's beliefs about capitalism and limits if any to LT growth and profitability.

Ha
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 01:30 PM   #12
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
One possible expanation for the oddity that yoiu mention is that earnings growth and this years earnings have perhaps been unusually strong. How that should be interpreted depends on one's beliefs about capitalism and limits if any to LT growth and profitability.
Agree. His method overstates the PE when earnings are growing rapidly and understates it when earnings are declining. Probably not a bad approach over long cycles. The problem is, though, that this approach would probably have indicated stocks were consistently over valued since the mid to late 80's.
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 02:21 PM   #13
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Re: We're still too exuberant

I don't agree with this method of valuing stocks. How would Google be valued if we used 10 years of earnings versus last year's and earnings projections for future periods? How about GM? The market has gone nowhere in the past 5 years. I don't get the feeling we are irrationally exhuberant right now. But what do I know? I have been wrong many times before.
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 03:19 PM   #14
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Oh boy! Tech talk. I'm just taking a break from a book: The author made an interesting point about how tech stoccks are evaluated. Basic points:

--We have determined that technology is good and that rapid growth and progress is wonderful for this country. I basically agree with this point.

--Part of tech and new innovation is rapid discovery and change. Ditto

--The Author's point: We often fail to see the rapid rise and fall of these new technologies as even better ones come along quickly. These technologies are held oftentimes by individual companies. New companies arise with new technology. i.e. the cycles are shorter.

--Therefore: Why would you give these new companies such high PE valuations when their product cycle may only last a few short years?

I thought this macro-perspective was interesting. That we are treating them as real, long-lived companies with expectations that many new products will flow out of them or the old ones will live almost forever. Microsoft is a case on point: It basically has Windows and Office as its revenue driver at this time. Nothing really new or innovative arriving in some time. In fact, soon, newer, more innovative products will probably be arriving--I hope. Probably from somewhere else, maybe from Google this time, maybe not. Microsoft is currently having success with their Xbox, but the original technology or idea isn't theirs. They leveraged into it. They are currently fighting the best innovators to even stay in the game. Short cycle maybe? Technology companies are currently grounded in this rapid cycling phase, IMO. I see more momentum investing then real investing. Perhaps tech is in a bubble?



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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 08:44 PM   #15
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Re: We're still too exuberant

His prediction may come true as early as 2007 because the speculative component of stock returns must revert to historical level according to this site:
http://passionsaving.com/Robert-Shiller.html
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-17-2005, 09:00 PM   #16
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky
His prediction may come true as early as 2007 because the speculative component of stock returns must revert to historical level according to this site:
http://passionsaving.com/Robert-Shiller.html
Huh?

Quote:
Robert Shiller’s mistake was in giving a precise date by which he expected to see stock prices fall.
He should have learned from Nostradamus - never be too precise and you'll never be wrong.

But in investing timing is everything. If you say "sell" and the market goes up in your face, you are wrong - plain and simple. You can wait until Revelations and claim victory that your stock market prediction was right because stocks fell to zero at the apocalypse. But that doesn't mean diddly to the people investing over the several thousand years before dooms day.

If you keep predicting stocks will fall, you will be right eventually. However, if you predict stocks will rise, you will be right more often.


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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-18-2005, 02:44 AM   #17
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. Niels BOHR

Come on 1995-2002 have been the best years for long or vene ever to make a fortune on trendy bull then bear markets !
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-18-2005, 05:52 AM   #18
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky
His prediction may come true as early as 2007 because the speculative component of stock returns must revert to historical level according to this site:
http://passionsaving.com/Robert-Shiller.html
He might have to sell The Crystal Cathedral.

JG
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-18-2005, 08:00 AM   #19
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Re: We're still too exuberant

Best to ignore evrything on h****'s board...
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Re: We're still too exuberant
Old 12-18-2005, 08:01 AM   #20
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Re: We're still too exuberant

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He might have to sell The Crystal Cathedral. *
*
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