what if colleges required payment up front?

[DrRoy]

I wonder if colleges and universities would do a better job of educating if their compensation was in some way dependent on the income of their graduates.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaronc879 Perhaps student loans should only be available to those who attend State schools. Private schools would only be for those who can pay 'out of pocket'.

Perhaps students and parents should exercise some common sense. That would stop the problem in its tracks.

I recall listening to a show on NPR about a year ago where they interviewed an English literature major who was about to graduate and had not given much thought to what jobs their degree would qualify them for or how much total debt they had taken on until it was much too late. Their major did about nothing to qualify them for a good paying job and they had large student loan debt as an anchor around their neck to start off life.

[marko]

What about schools having a variable tuition based upon the expected income that major would produce. That way, an arts degree might cost say, $10K $3K a year they pay you and a business degree would cost $40K a year and so on.

Please do not forward this to my SIL who vehemently believes that college should never be about getting a job but about "the joy of learning" and the ummm "experience of college life".

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Perhaps students and parents should exercise some common sense. That would stop the problem in its tracks.

You could take that stand on a number of situations where someone is being sold something........

Automobile customers should exercise some common sense so that lying, high pressure salespeople can never put them into a car and car loan they can't afford.

Investors should exercise some common sense so that lying, high pressure salespeople don't sell them FA services they don't need or complicated, high commission annuities.

Home buyers should exercise some common sense so that lying, high pressure mortgage loan officers (think 2006) don't put them into a mortgage they can't afford.

Students and parents...........

And blaah, blaah, blaah.........

I really think there are shrewd hucksters out there that can easily take advantage of many folks. We need to establish a few rules to help keep them in at least partial control for the sake of maintaining an organized society/economy. Having the student victim at least be able to petition for bankruptcy after the "fashion and design" major that was a "guaranteed winner" doesn't pan out would go a long way towards this.

[aaronc879]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marko What about schools having a variable tuition based upon the expected income that major would produce. That way, an arts degree might cost say, $10K $3K a year they pay you and a business degree would cost $40K a year and so on. Please do not forward this to my SIL who vehemently believes that college should never be about getting a job but about "the joy of learning" and the ummm "experience of college life".

That idea could have potential. After all, different degrees are different products and they are worth different amounts so why not charge different amounts for them.

[marko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayHare We've seen the problems easy loan money creates. I'd like the colleges, who ostenstibly have the student's best interests in mind, to be more responsible about the financial burden.

Maybe I'm too much of a cynic but I doubt colleges have the student's best interests in mind anymore, even ostensibly, despite what the nice glossy brochure will say. This is a business and a nicely profitable one at that.

Professors and deans in my town sure live well on their mid-six figure salaries and as another poster commented, the overall facilities are like five star resorts.

As always, "follow the money"

Just my view.

[pb4uski]

Perhaps force the educational institution some non-trival participation in the student debt so they have some skin in the game. If the school owned 50% of the debt I suspect that the number of fashion and design majors with high leverage would decline dramatically.

[aaronc879]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet I really think there are shrewd hucksters out there that can easily take advantage of many folks. We need to establish a few rules to help keep them in at least partial control. Having the student victim at least be able to petition for bankruptcy after the "fashion and design" major that was a "guaranteed winner" doesn't pan out.

I think a better idea than letting people declare bankruptcy would be to require colleges to provide students and their parents a free seminar about the risks of student loan debt and the differences between majors in relation to job placement and income potential.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Perhaps force the educational institution some non-trival participation in the student debt so they have some skin in the game. If the school owned 50% of the debt I suspect that the number of fashion and design majors with high leverage would decline dramatically.

Only if we change the rules, as I suggested above, to allow bankruptcy to discharge student loans.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaronc879 I think a better idea than letting people declare bankruptcy would be to require colleges to provide students and their parents a free seminar about the risks of student loan debt and the differences between majors in relation to job placement and income potential.

While I agree that is a good thing to do, I don't think it is nearly a big enough of a hammer. The lenders need to assume more risk and therefore be more selective where they give loans. Especially at for-profit schools where abuse seems to be the worse.

[Fedup]

I don't mind paying ahead except I would like 10% discount.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Perhaps students and parents should exercise some common sense. That would stop the problem in its tracks. I recall listening to a show on NPR about a year ago where they interviewed an English literature major who was about to graduate and had not given much thought to what jobs their degree would qualify them for or how much total debt they had taken on until it was much too late. Their major did about nothing to qualify them for a good paying job and they had large student loan debt as an anchor around their neck to start off life.

I agree that this can happen at a top notch school.... but from what I read most of the kids with horrible loans that cannot be paid are going to those for profit colleges that give them zero skills....


Just looked this up...

20 Private Colleges With the Highest Student Loan Debt | Credit.com


Then saw this.... looks like Pennsylvania is not a great place to go to college...

These Public Colleges Spit Out Grads With the Most Student Loan Debt | Credit.com

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet You could take that stand on a number of situations where someone is being sold something........ Automobile customers should exercise some common sense so that lying, high pressure salespeople can never put them into a car and car loan they can't afford. Investors should exercise some common sense so that lying, high pressure salespeople don't sell them FA services they don't need or complicated, high commission annuities. Home buyers should exercise some common sense so that lying, high pressure mortgage loan officers (think 2006) don't put them into a mortgage they can't afford. Students and parents........... And blaah, blaah, blaah......... I really think there are shrewd hucksters out there that can easily take advantage of many folks. We need to establish a few rules to help keep them in at least partial control for the sake of maintaining an organized society/economy. Having the student victim at least be able to petition for bankruptcy after the "fashion and design" major that was a "guaranteed winner" doesn't pan out would go a long way towards this.

Simple solution teach folks to assume that everyone trying to sell them something only cares about the salesperson welfare and does not give a damn about the customer. Paranoia is a good thing in these cases, assume you are the patsy in every deal.

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Perhaps students and parents should exercise some common sense. That would stop the problem in its tracks. I recall listening to a show on NPR about a year ago where they interviewed an English literature major who was about to graduate and had not given much thought to what jobs their degree would qualify them for or how much total debt they had taken on until it was much too late. Their major did about nothing to qualify them for a good paying job and they had large student loan debt as an anchor around their neck to start off life.

And yet with some tweaks the major could be useful. How many instruction manuals have you seen that are written horribly. I recall back when I was involved in standards work a person from an It company with an english major came along and made the documents much more clear. If you learn how to use the english language to communicate effectively (which STEM majors generally don't have time to learn) it can be a useful skill.
I do recall from grad school there was a requirement for an Oral presentation class which many thought a waste of time, but communication is of course important in most jobs.
So encourage the person and have the school offer some tech writing courses, so not all essays written are on the minutia of literature.

[Senator]

Perhaps colleges could underwrite the loans. A student could pay 10% of their salary for 10 years, then the rest is forgiven. Or they pay a lot of they get a great job.

Or require military service before anyone can even go to college. An honorable discharge could be a prerequisite to enrolling in a public college, or getting any government guaranteed loans or pell grants.

If you can't handle the military, you can't handle college either.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meierlde Simple solution teach folks to assume that everyone trying to sell them something only cares about the salesperson welfare and does not give a damn about the customer. Paranoia is a good thing in these cases, assume you are the patsy in every deal.

I 100% agree that teaching people to recognize risks and sales pitches is a good thing! But simple solution? No, I don't think so. In fact, isn't "simple solution" and "teach folks" an oxymoron?

[imoldernu]

Y'all are tackling a big subject, thankfully without getting into politics.

Some early thinking to broaden the probabilities and possibilities:

College loans compared to Subprime housing loans
College costs in other countries
Changing to government paid through college
Likelihood of changing any laws
Compare College Endowment $$$
Federal vs. Private based lending
Loan forgiveness or bankruptcy effect on banks and lending institutions.
Selection of brightest and best
Government support, based on government rules

Dealing with some pretty big institutions here, and not all with altruistic motives.

[Midpack]

Caveat emptor...since 1523!

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meierlde And yet with some tweaks the major could be useful. ...

Agreed. DNephew was an English major and took a job in a company IT department helping with their documentation. He has since decided to go back to school for his masters in counseling.

[Gumby]

I paid for law school in full, in cash, without loans or financial aid of any kind. I had saved all the necessary money during the 8 years I was working as an engineer following college. That did three main things:

1. It made me think very hard about where I went to school. I realized that if I wanted a decent legal job, I needed to go to a top school. I limited my applications on the theory that if I could not get into one of the top 10, I should not go at all.

2. It made me think carefully about the courses I took. It was entirely possible at my school to take fluff courses and still graduate. Since a very large number of my classmates came from wealthy families and really had no intention of practicing law, that worked for them. I stuck with the black letter law classes.

3. I never skipped class, because I knew to the penny how much each day cost me.