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Old 01-29-2016, 11:21 AM   #101
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It is depends on the university. My kid is in CS and its under college of engineering at her school. It's BS CS not BA CS at her school.


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CS is not engineering even though the school is the same. At U of MN, the CSE (college of science and engineering) offers chemistry, geological science, computer science and various disciplines of engineering programs. There's a program called computer engineering (hybrid between CS and EE), however.
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Old 01-29-2016, 12:47 PM   #102
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Are you a fool for giving up your freedom and time when you have a choice?

It's great to have a choice.

I am nominating this the quote of the year
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:04 PM   #103
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Will be walking away from about 350k take-home in a few months. I really appreciate the discussion and reading how happy most are that they walked away. It doesn't seem that long ago that as a 10-yr-old I couldn't wait until I was old enough to work so that I could earn my own money, buy my own bike, bow-and-arrows, coin collection, etc. After all this time it's become something of a habit and a comfort against...against that feeling of "not being able to" do this or that, I guess. The decision to walk away is very hard for me...not because of the amount of the money, but because it's been so important for so long to keep the job and income. My job hasn't felt like an optional, disposable part of my life so far, and it's hard to shed that feeling of job as safety net.
Interesting.

I feel much the same, although I often equate the amount of money and the job as being one and the same. My job has been built with one achievement after another, pretty much since high school. If I didn't do well in high school, I wouldn't have gone to this college. If I didn't go this this college, I wouldn't have gone to this graduate school. If I didn't go to this graduate school, ... The job represents ~40 years of often extreme effort, and the money helps to quantify this.

I wouldn't feel bad about quitting a job at McDonald's because it would be easy to return if I wanted or needed the income. However, there's no returning to my present position once I retire. It will be gone for good, as if the last 40 years never happened. I'll be losing something that I built. Yes, the remnants will remain with a DB pension and investment portfolio, but a lifetime of effort may feel gone.
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:12 PM   #104
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I wouldn't feel bad about quitting a job at McDonald's because it would be easy to return if I wanted or needed the income. However, there's no returning to my present position once I retire. It will be gone for good, as if the last 40 years never happened. I'll be losing something that I built. Yes, the remnants will remain with a DB pension and investment portfolio, but a lifetime of effort may feel gone.
Same here. I have mentally adjusted that all my hard work over the years was not for my current position, but for my retirement.

If I could have retired on day one, at age 18, at my current salary I certainly would have. Unfortunately, I needed money to retire, so I had to get a job. To get ahead in my job, I had to work hard. The good jobs required college, so I got that. Colleges required a HS education, so I got that.

Now I am ready for my final promotion, retire.
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:13 PM   #105
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$175k salary, 7.5% 401k, 60% health care contribution, 30 days of sick/vacation. Thought about "should I have stayed another year or two? " . Talked with former coworkers and decided that the $ wasn't worth it. I left just when the $ worked, little cushion. The recent decline in the market was why I was wondering.

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Old 01-29-2016, 01:44 PM   #106
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CS is not engineering even though the school is the same. At U of MN, the CSE (college of science and engineering) offers chemistry, geological science, computer science and various disciplines of engineering programs. There's a program called computer engineering (hybrid between CS and EE), however.

I say it is. My kid was originally majored in Computer Engineering, both my husband and I are EE, but base on our experience we suggested she switched to CS. More flexible, jobs wise. She has to take engineering classes too.
I have a BS in EE and a MS in CE, so I know.


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Old 01-29-2016, 02:04 PM   #107
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Sometimes I do surmise that having invested that 7% pension deduction for 35 years would've resulted in a better deal, tax-wise (living off proceeds/SWR and only paying CG tax), but how could I have known that in 1980?
Even if you were paying 0% tax, you'd have to be fairly lucky with your investments to be able to match the after tax value of the pension. Besides, the pension includes mortality credits. Can't generate that by yourself and private annuities are a lot more expensive than pension.

I've actually done the math for our pension system (10% contribution rate and 2% per year of service).

Assuming age 25 retiring at 55/30, salary is flat and basically just keeps up with inflation, no employer match, 5% SWR and 0% tax on distributions, that person would need 7.25% annualized real return to get the same after-tax payout as pension. If subject to ordinary income for single tax filing status (as is the case with traditional 401k/403b/IRA/etc), need around 8% annualized real.

At 4% SWR, the real annualized returns required rise to 8.5% (at 0% tax) and 9.25% (ordinary income).
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Old 01-29-2016, 05:09 PM   #108
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Thanks for this perspective, which is where I think I'll find myself in 8 years when eligible to pull the plug and enjoy a moderate retirement or continue to work and impact other folks lives and get much satisfaction from it. If it were only about me it would be a no brainer as far as I'm concerned to retire when eligible as my investments would cover the lifestyle I anticipate living.

But it is not only about me, so I'll be facing a dilemma also -- Really though I see it as a win -- win -- If I have an early retirement -- WIN If I decide there are worthwhile "causes" that push me to work a few extra years -- WIN -- even if I die shortly thereafter
Well, this idea (yours and a couple others above) about slaving away in an office for more years when you don't have to, just so you can (for example) send lots of money to your local animal shelter I don't think would have as much impact as volunteering those same full-time years at the shelter cleaning cages and walking the dogs (and probably a more fun time than spending it in the office).

In my experience if you give large chunks of money -- larger compared to what most people would give -- people assume you just have a lot of it and it's no sacrifice to you. Same with friends and family for that matter. Not that helping others is about the gratitude you get in return, but just don't expect much if you only give money, at least from most people and organizations in my experience.
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Old 01-29-2016, 07:01 PM   #109
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Well, this idea (yours and a couple others above) about slaving away in an office for more years when you don't have to, just so you can (for example) send lots of money to your local animal shelter I don't think would have as much impact as volunteering those same full-time years at the shelter cleaning cages and walking the dogs (and probably a more fun time than spending it in the office).
I disagree. For every additional year of work, my financial situation improves by over $500K ($220K salary plus ~$300K pension increase, before taxes). This has significantly more potential value than volunteering full-time at a local animal shelter (incidentally, I foster stray/feral kittens and cats - animal fosters are the primary need, not cleaning cages).

If I retired 15 years ago when first realistically possible, I would not have been able to afford the $100K in veterinary bills for my own pets and the pets of friends over the last 10 years. All the volunteering in the world wouldn't have changed this. These animals - members of the family - would have died not because they reached the end of their lives. They would have died because I could not afford the medical care necessary to provide them with a few extra years of quality life. I never want to be in such a situation - euthanasia because of limited financial resources.

If I retired 15 years ago, I would not be able to currently finance the college education of a friend's niece who lives in the Philippines. This 16-year-old young woman, who I've never personally met, would not be in college today if it wasn't for my "slaving away in an office for more years" (your words). Period. She wouldn't have a new laptop for school. She wouldn't have received three days of hospitalization last October when she came down with dengue fever.

If I retired 15 years ago, my older brother would not have recently written, "Your perspective about the Mom thing helped settle me down. ... Thanks for bringing me back to earth," when I told him that I can fully manage the financial support and long-term care needs of our mother. In fact, I specifically wrote to him , "One reason I'm still in the workforce is to ensure that the resources for such life events will be there if and when needed." I was able to alleviate the considerable stress my family was feeling about the situation. Problem solved, all because I didn't retire when it first became convenient for me. (I'll mention that my mother is very healthy and probably several years from LTC.)

There are more examples. Point is, it's a lot more complicated for some of us than simple calculations of individual retirement expenses. Other people (and pets) and a variety of possible life scenario's need to be considered. This doesn't mean people should never retire, but it adds more variables and uncertainty to the equation.
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Old 01-29-2016, 08:41 PM   #110
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...
Hmmm, so to summarize:

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so I could pay my friends' vet bills

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so my brother would like me

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so my friend's distant cousin might have a good future

Good for you, and I mean it.. not my choice in life though.
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Old 01-29-2016, 08:54 PM   #111
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I wouldn't feel bad about quitting a job at McDonald's because it would be easy to return if I wanted or needed the income. However, there's no returning to my present position once I retire. It will be gone for good, as if the last 40 years never happened. I'll be losing something that I built. Yes, the remnants will remain with a DB pension and investment portfolio, but a lifetime of effort may feel gone.
I can see where it would be really hard to leave a job your like yours to ER. You've given a lot of great reasons for staying. Maybe that is the right choice for you. What would you do if you left? And good for you for using your money to help others.

Altruism can bring a lot of personal happiness.
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:50 AM   #112
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I nominate Shawn as The Altruist of The Year! I see the actions as similar to the billionaires who commit half their fortunes to charitable causes.
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:37 AM   #113
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Hmmm, so to summarize:

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so I could pay my friends' vet bills

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so my brother would like me

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so my friend's distant cousin might have a good future

Good for you, and I mean it.. not my choice in life though.
Very true. Shawn is a great guy but at the end of the day how many of those people will be truly thankful long term. Another question to ask is would those people just go another if Shawn did not do what he did. I say this because what I have seen in my family.
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Old 01-30-2016, 12:10 PM   #114
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It's much more complicated than simply "walking away". For most of us there is a balance between the added satisfaction/enjoyment/freedom that retirement provides, versus the "cost' of giving up the compensation. Once your assets get to a certain multiple of desired spending, why fixate on something like pre tax comp? Ongoing comp, even if significant, will be less important once the assets are in place. ....
+1 to this

I walked away from a company officer job at a publicly traded company - so significant comp and benefits and non-cash perks. Getting cashed out in a merger was really the push I needed. Stayed with the newco 6 mos post-close per merger k and was offered a job after that ended ... but politely and respectfully declined (though I have taken on a small consulting project for them recently ... it's short term (very)).

All that said, it was still a grind and once we were FI, or close, it became increasingly obvious that it was time to go.
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Old 01-30-2016, 12:34 PM   #115
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Given the prospect of getting on one more airplane for an out of town trip I came to the conclusion that there was no amount of money that could put me on that plane.

Of course now I am faced with a bride who would like to travel once she retires. I can distract her with car travel for only so long. Hope this aversion to travel wears off.
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Old 01-30-2016, 06:42 PM   #116
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Hmmm, so to summarize:

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so I could pay my friends' vet bills

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so my brother would like me

-- I slaved away in my crap job for 15 more years so my friend's distant cousin might have a good future

Good for you, and I mean it.. not my choice in life though.
To be honest, I don't believe you mean it because you did not accurately summarize what I wrote. In fact, you seem to purposely misstate the facts of what I wrote. I believe you're being disingenuous.

In addition to my own pets, I paid the vet bills for my pet sitter. My pet sitter provided compassionate love and care to my own cat for two years when my cat had kidney disease. She came to my house every day to give my cat medications and fluids. I basically had to force her to take my money for her own pet(s). But as I told her, "what comes around goes around."

I could care less if my brother or anyone else in my family "likes me." I've seen my brother twice in 25 years. However, I believe children should be responsible for their parents - and others in their family when necessary and appropriate. I'm talking about responsible people who normally rely on themselves. I don't recall anyone in my family ever asking me for money.

And of the young college student that I'm currently supporting. It's not "my friend's distant cousin." Where did I write that? I wrote that it is my friends niece. She is effectively my friend's daughter. My friend has financially supported her since birth, as well as the niece's mother for the last 30 years. I watched my friend work 16 hours a day as a low paid caretaker just to send all the money back to the Philippines. But she can't afford college education for her niece.

The niece - the college student - refers to me as "Uncle Shawn" (which puts a smile in my heart). I periodically ask her on the phone, "do you need anything?" Her response is always, "Uhhh ... No." Then I ask, "do you want anything?" Again, her response is always, "Uhhh ... No." She doesn't want to waste financial resources on anything but her education. Talk about frugal and a focus on her future. And she's only 16 years old.

In a video message to me last March, the niece said (reading from words she wrote),
"Hi Uncle Shawn.

When I first read your letter regarding the colleges and universities I have recently applied for, I was deeply touched by the phrase that you have written which is, 'don't limit your choices.' I suddenly thought, hold on, haven't I been doing that for the past few months. I then felt my mind fluttering out of darkness out of my disappointment and fears to fail from what I always wanted. I remember my 9 year old self saying, I want to be a veterinarian.

Uncle Shawn, you have given me the inspiration to look ahead at my future at the wide blue horizon of limitless opportunities. By awarding me with the chance of being the recipient of your hard work and will to learn, I am able to concentrate on what is important for me, which is education. Your generosity as well as your love towards our family - especially Auntie - allow me to be one step closer to my goals, and has inspired me to help others by giving it back to the community in the future. I hope one day I will be able to help other students achieve their goals just as you have helped me.

Thank you so much. I promise to do my very best in college. I know that it will be rewarding for you, Auntie, Uncle Chris, and Mama, to see me walk up the stage some day carrying the honor of the people who dearly love me, trusts in me, and believes in my potential.

Thank you and God bless. Bye bye."
This doesn't sound like someone without gratitude. So yes, I have no trouble spending additional time in the workforce to support the education or recent medical care of a young person such as this. Wouldn't anyone? I don't get it.

The 4-year cost of college in the Philippines will be fairly minor - probably $30K or so. Chump change. But as I saw the situation developing a few years ago, a scenario was that she would come to the US. The 4-year cost at a California State school might be $150K. That's more than chump change, and influenced my decision not to retire.

The point is that I do not know the future. I do not know what help will be needed by good and responsible people within my sphere of influence, and even outside my sphere of influence. The costs of these potential needs are in conflict with my desire to retire.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:14 PM   #117
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I can see where it would be really hard to leave a job your like yours to ER. You've given a lot of great reasons for staying. Maybe that is the right choice for you. What would you do if you left? And good for you for using your money to help others.

Altruism can bring a lot of personal happiness.
I appreciate your comments (and you too, kcowen), but it's not altruism. It's selfishness. I do it because it makes me feel good. Me. Me. Me.

But you are very correct. Helping others can bring a lot of personal happiness. This could be an activity when I leave my job.

Interestingly enough, I heard a sound bite on TV the other day. The only thing I heard was something like, "I'm traveling to Cambodia to help the children there." My immediate thoughts were ...

"If I retire today, my DB pension will be about $105K/yr. If I retire in 4 years at 60 - my full retirement age - my pension will be $165K/yr. It will be easier for me to go to a place like Cambodia to help the children or whomever if I have the higher income."

I don't know if I'd actually do something like this - but I might. Having such freedom and flexibility is appealing. It creates new opportunities and avenues of personal fulfillment. But it comes at the expense of additional work. It's a tradeoff - something I may or may not be willing to take.

More pain today. More happiness tomorrow.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:20 PM   #118
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Shawn, I am never one to criticize you for your choice. I am not as generous as you are, but I do know the joy of giving to people in need.

I do wonder that you are sufficiently well off that you could do the above good deeds even if you retire early. But it seems like you do not hate your job, and if you retire, may not be as happy as you are now. So, there's nothing wrong with working.

As long as people are happy with what they do, that's all that matters, whether they stay home twiddling thumb, or live in an RV but have to do menial work to pay for it like people described in an article referenced in another concurrent thread.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:24 PM   #119
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In a video message to me last March, the niece said (reading from words she wrote),
"Hi Uncle Shawn.

When I first read your letter regarding the colleges and universities I have recently applied for, I was deeply touched by the phrase that you have written which is, 'don't limit your choices.' I suddenly thought, hold on, haven't I been doing that for the past few months. I then felt my mind fluttering out of darkness out of my disappointment and fears to fail from what I always wanted. I remember my 9 year old self saying, I want to be a veterinarian.

Uncle Shawn, you have given me the inspiration to look ahead at my future at the wide blue horizon of limitless opportunities. By awarding me with the chance of being the recipient of your hard work and will to learn, I am able to concentrate on what is important for me, which is education. Your generosity as well as your love towards our family - especially Auntie - allow me to be one step closer to my goals, and has inspired me to help others by giving it back to the community in the future. I hope one day I will be able to help other students achieve their goals just as you have helped me.

Thank you so much. I promise to do my very best in college. I know that it will be rewarding for you, Auntie, Uncle Chris, and Mama, to see me walk up the stage some day carrying the honor of the people who dearly love me, trusts in me, and believes in my potential.

Thank you and God bless. Bye bye."
This doesn't sound like someone without gratitude.
Maybe she is truly grateful, but in my experience people you don't know who you keep sending free money to will also write to you glowingly to keep it coming. As soon as the money stops, you'll never hear from them again. I'm just saying look out, it's a common tactic.

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So yes, I have no trouble spending additional time in the workforce to support the education or recent medical care of a young person such as this. Wouldn't anyone? I don't get it.
Most people I think stop at family. You work to support yourself and your family. Working to support friends (and their distant relatives -- which I meant because she is a relative of your friend and lives far away) is just... strange to me.

But good for you for helping that girl. Keep slaving away instead of retiring.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:32 PM   #120
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Plus I think Shawn helps shore up our SS. I think it's wonderful.


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