What is a Moderate Income?

[youbet]

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Originally Posted by 2B From my stint as a long term sub, I saw a turnover in Special Ed by either quitting for a non-teaching job or getting certified in some other subject and teaching that.

Yep, it's a tough gig.

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I was told that special ed is the easiest certification to get but that most people burn out in 3 years or less.

Not true ref the certification. Can't imagine how your sources came to that wrong conclusion. Ref burnout, yes it's a tough gig.

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As for the other things you listed, I don't consider them teachers but "other professions" that happen to work for a school district. My SIL is a speech therapist. You are correct that they get teacher benefits.

Whether you consider therapists "teachers" or not is not the point. They are there in the schools, teaching the children, and are in very short supply. It's not just math and science teachers that are in short supply.

[youbet]

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Originally Posted by OldMcDonald Any possibility you think being married to a teacher makes you more than a little biased? I'd say my position on the school committee, who sits in contract negotiations and see what really goes on gives me a much better and objective view of how schools are run then someone married to a teacher.

What is this "regional school committee?" Are you talking about what we refer to as the school board where the members are elected, hire and fire the school superintendent, set pay levels and policies, approve contracts, benefits and working rules, etc.? Or are you talking about something else?

Also, you keep throwing in the words "always" and "all" and that is taking away the credibility of your opinions. For example, in Illinois, as senior teachers responded to a state-sponsored buy-out plan by opting for early retirement, paying them for the huge number of unused sick days they had accumulated became a financial issue. That didn't sound like "all" teachers "always" use "all" their sick days!

[farmerEd]

A regioanl school committee is the school committee for a regional school...one that serves multiple towns - common in small towns where there are not enough students to make a school by themselves..

If those senior teachers got "bought out" of their sick days, then they *used* all of them...i.e. they got paid for them.

[youbet]

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Originally Posted by OldMcDonald A regional school committee is the school committee for a regional school...one that serves multiple towns - common in small towns where there are not enough students to make a school by themselves..

OK, I understand the regional part. But, if your committee is the "school board" with the authority to hire and fire, set pay levels, work rules and policies, etc., and you are the chairperson, why are you running things this way? Don't take this personally, but gosh OldMcDonald, your school system is a reflection of YOU. YOU da man/woman. Were you just recently elected and haven't had time to grab the reigns and change things yet? Or perhaps no one else wants the job and you're just going through the motions? It seems like you're complaining up a storm about an organization you have authority to change. Am I misunderstanding?

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If those senior teachers got "bought out" of their sick days, then they *used* all of them...i.e. they got paid for them.

OK, if that's your interpretation. I thought you were refering to a problem you were having with teacher attendance due to them using sick days.

[MasterBlaster]

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee Less than a high income but more than a low income. Does that help? If that isn't specific enough, any poster on the board is invited to send me recent tax returns and I will evaluate them and let you know whether your income is moderate or not. This service will cost only $19.95 per person or family.

That's not quite correct. A moderate income is when your salary is less than your brother in laws salary.

[FinanceDude]

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Originally Posted by windsurf Old Mac:Schools are run for the benefit of the teachers first and foremost...most teachers will do right by the kids ONLY AFTER they get what they want...when push comes to shove if its a choice between doing whats right for the kids, or right for the teachers, the teachers and their unions will ALWAYS put their priorities first and screw the kids - I've got plenty of exampes. This is overgeneralized BS. I watched my wife leave every morning at 8:30 am and return home at 5:30 pm (half hour commute). MUch evening and weekend work. Over 25 tears, thousands of our money spent on materials. You are an angry, misinformed person who seems to hate the profession for actual reasons you don't specify. Yes, there are some crappy teachers but, on the average, I saw more productivity from them than I see in much of the corporate sector.

My parents are BOTH retired teachers, one at a technical college, one in public schools. I will be willing to act as mediator for all fights..........

[bosco]

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Originally Posted by OldMcDonald Actually I have...being the chairperson of the regional school committee in which I live gives me plenty of time with teachers and the school system...(and because I've seen the school system close up I homeschool all my children)...1100 hours per year would be the MAX most teachers would work...there is only 180 school days, about 6 hours work per school day, ALL the teachers take every single one of their sick/personal days they have coming, and if you want them to do 5 extra minutes work beyond what the contract requires...in comes the union. Don't tell me I haven't spent much time with teachers...I've spent plenty (and thus the homeschooling).

sounds like a classic case of bad management getting the teachers' back up. I suggest a change in the regional school committee personnel.

I've had a few friends that were teachers. I've known a few bad ones but they were in the minority. Most I have seen were in by 7:30 or 8, out at 4:30 or so and their lunch "hour" was often spent with kids, tutoring or on he playground. They had evening functions, were often in the classroom on weekends, and fielded phone calls from parents on their own time. They were often in the school before their contracts started getting their classrooms and materials ready. Many frequently graded papers in the evening (I'm sure you checked all of this when you figured out the 1100 hours thing...)

If you had teachers working 1100 hours and behaving as you describe. it's called "work to rule" and it's a tactic they use to deal with heavy-handed or unfair administrators or school boards. I wonder what you did to get them that riled.... Even then, many won't participate because they'd rather be slaughtered like lambs by the anti-teacher admininstrators than harm kids.

One of the funniest examples I've seen of uninformed teacher-bashing was the school administration in northeastern Oregon that wouldn't allow teachers to collect their salaries over 12 months. The logic was "it's too diffiult to explain to people that teachers aren't really getting paid for not working in the summer and really getting the same pay."

Once again, I originally asked why teachers should make less than other comparably-educated professionals. You gave anecdotal arguments that basically amounted to "because all teachers are lazy." Do you have any better reasons? Some engineers, accountants, and managers are lazy too.

Don't get me wrong...I know there are bad teachers. I would like to see tenure ended. Pay teachers well, and boot them out the door if they can't teach. But don't use some half-witted exam to determine if they are good teachers or not--there are too many problems with that approach.

[macdaddy]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...aid_in_nation/

Anecdotally, I have a couple friends who have joined the Boston Police Department. If you want to work 60 hours/week 50 weeks/year you will make $80k+ your first year on the job. Some of the extra will come from overtime, detail work, or private jobs, but there is no shortage of decent paying work for these guys. A cop marries a teacher and presto you have a household pulling in $130k/year, which definitely seems like middle class around here. In the past, the wife may have stayed home to raise the kids. Now it seems like they all go back to work. Maybe that's part of the difference.

[kaudrey]

Astromedia said: Anyone above the 25% points in net worth on that chart is rich IMO, just a question of how rich. Do they, like Darcy, live in a huge mansion with many servants, a large estate with rent-paying tenants, enjoy sumptuous feasts, international travel, and the lastest chic fashions and luxe fabrics.

Well, I fall into that category. I'm 37. I am NOT rich, even if you'd like to consider me so. I am saving to retire early. I LBYM. I am lucky enough to have bought a townhouse 7 years ago outside of DC that is now worth about 2.5x what I bought it for. I could not afford to buy it now. I can't retire now, and won't be able to for 15 years or so. If I was rich, I could retire now.

So, no, I don't have a huge mansion, no servants, and I hate to shop and spend money on clothes. I DO have a passion for travel and go international about once every year and 1/2 or so, but that's about it. I save, I hope I can FIRE when I plan to, and I plan to retire to somewhere cheaper than here.

Karen

[bbuzzard]

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Originally Posted by bosco Once again, I originally asked why teachers should make less than other comparably-educated professionals.

These are generalization that do not apply to all, but do apply to most teachers:

1) Job stability. Keep your nose clean and you have a job for life. I.e., the job is yours to lose. No worries about getting laid off because the company lost a big contract.
2) 10 weeks of summer vacation plus 4 weeks during the school year. Yes, teachers work outside of school hours, but so does everyone else in professional positions. The average teacher works MUCH less hours than the average private sector professional employee, I would estimate perhaps only 60-70% of what private sector professional employees work.
3) Pension and no SS. My FIL was a teacher. He retired at 53 with a $36,000/year pension plus healthcare in 1995. For this, he paid 8% of his salary into the retirement system for 30 years. I pay 8%, will pay it for 44 years, can't retire until 67, and will be lucky to get $15,000/year in SS. If I got the same return he got, my SS payment would be on the order of 100,000/year in today's dollars when I retire.
4) Comparing an BS in engineering and a BA in education is laughable. This is totally my opinion, with no scientific backup, but I am comfortable that 99% of engineering graduate could get a teaching degree, but less than 5% of teachers could get an engineering degree. Do you know anyone who dropped out of education because it was too hard? I don't either, but know that about 30% dropped out of my engineering class for this reason.
5) Politics. Yes, it still exist, but it is difficult to lose your job because someone doesn't like you. This is not true in the private sector.

I have enough teachers in my family to know that it has its challenges. However, teaching is still an attractive position for these and other reasons.

[eridanus]

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Originally Posted by bbuzzard 2) 10 weeks of summer vacation plus 4 weeks during the school year. Yes, teachers work outside of school hours, but so does everyone else in professional positions.

Exactly. A corporate droid gets 2 weeks of vacation (and <10 days of holidays) and works a minimum of 8-5 each day. Add in the "crunch times" and 2000 hours of work/year is probably low.

This is why I contract.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by windsurf This is overgeneralized BS. I watched my wife leave every morning at 8:30 am and return home at 5:30 pm (half hour commute).

That's a heck of a way to make your point!!?? Wow, so this is the mythical 9-5 job I've heard about? And summers off, too?

Most of my time in the private sector, if I came in at 9:00 or left by 5:00, I would have had to explain what was going on. Doing it routinely would mean they'd be looking to cut headcount to reduce expenses. If I came home at 5:30, my wife would say 'what's wrong'?

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Originally Posted by windsurf MUch evening and weekend work

Much of the private sector gets that too and it goes on all summer, and often over the holidays. Your boss's or division's end of the year goals can really put a crush on the holidays for many.

I know teacher pay varies from area to area, but you don't need to look too far in the NW suburbs of Chicago to find teachers making over $100K (it's public info). Yes, they probably have a Masters and maybe 15 years experience, but with that , the salary is pretty much a guarantee. In the private sector, education counts, experience counts, but it is not a guarantee at all.

On top of that, pensions and other benefits mentioned that are rare in the private sector.

It's been my personal experience, talking to some teachers in our area, that they live in a fairyland - they really do not seem to realize that the total compensation package they have is way outside the norm.

I'll be a bit more accepting when I see a Teacher's Union contract that has anything in it about improving education - they are all about salary, benefits, working conditions and protectionism.

Despite this 'rant', I think most teachers are trying pretty hard to do a good job. Some that try, fail though - and some don't try. I have a big problem with the protection of incompetents that goes on (though it is fairly rare, in my experience - but our kids deserve better).

Eventually, if the Unions don't wake up to the situation they are creating, teaching will be outsourced. The technology in the near future will allow group and one-on-one teaching at reduced costs, and just maybe better quality. If you don't believe it, ask all the industry sectors that have been outsourced that thought it could never happen to them.

-ERD50

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by bosco Once again, I originally asked why teachers should make less than other comparably-educated professionals.

No one should decide if what some one else makes is 'fair'. Let the laws of supply and demand set that in a free market. If you don't like the combination of the work itself and the compensation, find something else.

Offer pay and benefits until the jobs are filled with as many competent people as you need. If a lot of people really like the job, the pay will tend to go down - supply/demand. There is nothing 'fair' or 'unfair' about it. It just is. Unless you like socialism - I don't.

When a corporation has too much bargaining power, it is bad - unions tend to get organized to balance that out.

When Unions get too much bargaining power, it is bad also.

I like a free market.

-ERD50

[windsurf]

To ERD50: So it's really an anit-union rant . . . Anyway, there were many years in my career where I took one single week off and took work with me. Nevertheless, I never felt that my wife did not earn every penny in comparison. I was well paid for what I did. She was not. !00k indeed. Her last year, 2000, she was paid a little over 40k. Right now we are paying over 8 k a year for mediocre high deductible med insurance through the teacher retirement system. Most people would not last a f***ing week with a room full of first graders (are you one that could?). And, yes, she did eat her lunch with the kids. High stress, huge responsibility (taking kids from non-readers (most) to readers and math skills and mediocre pay. It takes monumental energy to actually teach and care (yes, an elementary teacher you also provide care) for from 25-30 kids. I could go on but I know I am wasting bandwidth with this argument. Your values are obviously in a different universe than mine.

[youbet]

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Originally Posted by bbuzzard However, teaching is still an attractive position for these and other reasons.

Yet, after careful analysis of the facts, you choose not to be a teacher. Is your analysis pure, ignorant BS, or could you simply not handle doing the job?

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by windsurf To ERD50: Most people would not last a f***ing week with a room full of first graders (are you one that could?).

No, I probably could not, and I would not choose to. But that's me, many teachers would not have been able to do my job either - it's what makes the world go around. I never wanted to be a Brain Surgeon or a Plumber either, I'm glad that there are people who chose those careers - we need them both.

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It takes monumental energy to actually teach and care (yes, an elementary teacher you also provide care) for from 25-30 kids. I could go on but I know I am wasting bandwidth with this argument.

You are creating an argument - I never made any value judgment about whether the job was difficult or not. If it is difficult, and few people want to do it, a free market will drive the salary and benefits up. If it is difficult but lots of people want to do it, a free market will keep salary/benefits down. Is that an argument?

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Your values are obviously in a different universe than mine.

I don't see where I made any statements about values? I talked about hours worked per year.

I think it's safe to say, that in my area at least, the average teacher works fewer hours per year than the average private sector worker.

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So it's really an anit-union rant

Read more carefully, it is a rant about interfering with a free market, whether union or corporate. It works both ways.

-ERD50

[ERD50]

I had to dig up the data on this one:

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Originally Posted by windsurf To ERD50: !00k indeed.

What, you don't believe me? I said: "I know teacher pay varies from area to area, but you don't need to look too far in the NW suburbs of Chicago to find teachers making over $100K (it's public info)."

Here's from a public database of a School district not far from us.

http://tinyurl.com/y94h6b

You won't need to go far down the list to find some teachers >$100K, several are over $130K.

Are they 'worth it'? I don't know the answer to that any more than I know whether some middle manager at some corporation is 'worth' $100K to $130K a year. I do know some parents thought that one of the $100K plus teachers was incompetent (that teacher may not be on this list - they may have retired by now), the school had received many complaints but was unwilling to fight for the students and parents.

But that was not the discussion. The discussion was geared towards:

A) Do teachers work as many hours annually as most private sector employees making similar annual salary ranges?

B) Do many teachers get better benefits than most private sector employees making similar annual salary ranges?

As I said, I'm sure salary/benefits vary geographically - I can only speak from my own experience and knowledge. I would say: A - NO; B- YES.

-ERD50

[honobob]

ERD50
WTF

[laurence]

Hmm, Mom was a high school chemistry teacher, doctoral work, top of the salary scale, never cleared 100k and she was in a high cost area (Los Angeles). Lesson plans, grading papers, workshops, textbook commitees, etc. Garantee she worked more than 2000 hours a year. I work with 2000 engineers, B.S. in E.E. or C.S., something similar, only takes a few years to make over 100k, and a lot of them spend a lot of quality time around the coffee maker.

Don't get me wrong, the whole summer off sure beats 4 weeks PTO, but teachers overpaid? I don't think so. Now an anti-union rant, I can listen to. I think some school districts are infected with unions that take away the incentive to perform as a teacher, I know my Mom was really ticked one teacher couldn't get fired, even though all she did was show videos in class every day. She'd get all the basic physical science courses with the future 7-11 employees. :P

[perinova]

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Originally Posted by ERD50 I had to dig up the data on this one: What, you don't believe me? I said: "I know teacher pay varies from area to area, but you don't need to look too far in the NW suburbs of Chicago to find teachers making over $100K (it's public info)." Here's from a public database of a School district not far from us. http://tinyurl.com/y94h6b You won't need to go far down the list to find some teachers >$100K, several are over $130K. Are they 'worth it'? I don't know the answer to that any more than I know whether some middle manager at some corporation is 'worth' $100K to $130K a year. I do know some parents thought that one of the $100K plus teachers was incompetent (that teacher may not be on this list - they may have retired by now), the school had received many complaints but was unwilling to fight for the students and parents. But that was not the discussion. The discussion was geared towards: A) Do teachers work as many hours annually as most private sector employees making similar annual salary ranges? B) Do many teachers get better benefits than most private sector employees making similar annual salary ranges? As I said, I'm sure salary/benefits vary geographically - I can only speak from my own experience and knowledge. I would say: A - NO; B- YES. -ERD50

thanks for the link
wow the disparity is huge!!!
I can safely define some as underpaid some as overpaid.
PN