What Women Want

[Helena]

As a single working woman who has taken care of herself
[and her disabled son] the past 30 years, I just want to be
able to enjoy God's blessings and the fruits of my labor...
ie, have a comfy nest and retire early.

 

[bssc]

Of course, this story makes me appreciate my wife, who makes more than me and saves lots, even more. Plus, since she is an electrical engineer, when we retire, she can do all the electrical work.

 

[audreyh1]

since she is an electrical engineer, when we retire, she can do all the electrical work.

Hah! I have EE degrees. Do I do the electrical work? No way! Call a properly licensed electrician for that dangerous stuff!

Audrey

P.S. House wiring was NOT in the curriculum.

 

[Nords]

The NYTimes had a recent article about questions couples should ask before marrying:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/fashion/weddings/17FIELDBOX.html

That kind of discussion may seem logical now, but I just can't see a 22-25 year old discussing ER planning. Most are only interested in where they are going on there honeymoon.

Heck, I can't see anyone getting married after fighting about that argument-starting list. Whatever would they have left to discuss after the honeymoon?

It's interesting that the NYT staff doesn't indicate who wrote it, their gender, and whether/how many times they're married.

And what about the lifestyle where neither will give it up?

He was already drawing a Navy pension when they started their own their real estate company. She was one of the island's top realtors in the 1980s & 90s. Today their kids run the day-to-day, the 3rd generation is starting to take over, and they travel the country speaking at conventions & training seminars. They've just finished renovating their multi-million $$ home (they spent a year in a Waikiki apartment). He says that the cost of retirement gets higher (to him, "unaffordable") every year. He was one of the speakers at a local seminar on investing in properties and I couldn't help but notice that his presence is not what it used to be. However I don't think either one of them can turn it off.

P.S. House wiring was NOT in the curriculum.

Running a submarine is way too dangerous to leave to the officers, and the electricians know that wiring a house is way too dangerous to leave to the engineers!

 

[Caroline]

"I suggested that since she hadn't had a job for 30 years maybe it was her turn and he could stay home."

I find this attitude confusing. Not having children myself, I just assume that parents place great value on the care, feeding, clothing, and emotional nurturing of their children. But here we have the suggestion that the stay-at-home mom's contribution doesn't count as 'work." I've heard my father say much the same thing to my mother when they argue, so this attitude is not unusual.

However, according to the quote below, (and any number of these surveys done over the years), the annual value of a stay-at-home mom's work is $134,121

REUTERS
May 4, 2006

NEW YORK – A full-time, stay-at-home mother would earn $134,121 a year if paid for all her work, an amount similar to a top U.S. advertising executive, a marketing director or a judge, according to a study released yesterday.

A mother who works outside the home would earn an extra $85,876 annually on top of her actual wages for the work she does at home, according to the study by Salary.com, a Massachusetts-based compensation analysis company

I also get confused by our tendency to forget what has come before, and to view the current situation as though it had no connection to the past. Here are a few examples to remind us:

I took the ASVAB test and enlisted in the Navy 30 years ago. In later years a recruiter told me that my test scores would have sent me straight to officer candidate school -- if I'd been a man.

My friend and realtor applied for a job managing a local country club 30 years ago -- she was turned down despite qualifications because she was "too attractive and might cause trouble with the married men." This kept her out of a well-paying job, but it didn't stop the club from offering her the low-paying position of the new hire's assistant. (She turned it down, he skipped town later with $100K of the club's funds...)

My mother-in-law desperately wanted to work once her kids were out of school -- her husband refused to hear anything about it. This was the same man who uprooted her regularly for the needs of his career, looked at potential houses without her input, and died recently leaving her with no clue as to what they had, where it was, etc.

My father has been retired for 20 years now - he's loving it, but my mother's work has not changed. In all that time he still has not learned to cook, to clean, or to otherwise life a finger around the house. I asked him how to set the dishwasher last week -- he had absolutely NO idea.

I could go on here, but you get the picture. Whether you like it or not it was a LOT harder for a woman to find work 30 years ago. It was and IS harder for her to make the same money as a man, and it is HARD, VALUABLE work to raise children, keep house, and today, hold down a job as well.

I have been fortunate enough to be able to attend college, learn a trade, and make a good salary. I have saved a lot more money than has my partner, and I will be entirely in control of my own retirement. I have no dog in this fight.

But we've all seen couples who work together toward retirement and other life goals, and couples who work at cross purposes. These couples you cite seem to be in the latter bucket. The wives seem to want to put their comfort and luxury above their husbands' desire for freedom and rest.

I'd suggest, though, that they might fail to appreciate their husbands' needs now because their own needs and contributions were devalued over their working lives.

 

[haha]

Uh, those men married those women, so it's what the men wanted.

This is definitely the voice of inexperience talking. Do you think that what a woman seems to be at age 25 or 30, when she is still looking for a husband, is a very good predictor of what she will be like at age 55 when she has had a nice ride for many years and when she knows that a court will see to it that her living conditions won't change too much?

If so, I have a bridge that I have been wanting to sell.

BTW, the details differ but it isn’t too easy to predict what a man will be like 25 years down the road either.

Ha

 

[haha]

Marriage, like any other financial arrangement, should include a mission statement; with room for renegotiation if circumstances change radically.

Didn't you say that you were married for a short time when you were young, and then divorced, and have remained single since?

Great advice, no doubt, but what makes you think it can be followed?

Ha

 

[haha]

I admit that I like living in nicer places with nicer things than Greg does. We would have been FI a lot sooner if I was as frugal as my spouse. But because I liked spending more than my spouse did, I kept working and he ER'd first.

We know about this Martha, and we are so impressed that we call you "Your Majesty".

Ha

 

[LOL!]

This is definitely the voice of inexperience talking.

Well, I have to admit that's true. I don't have a long list of previous marriages that I can claim on my resume. I only got married once and I'm still married almost 25 years later.

 

[lowflyer]

Come-on everybody. Isn't this what makes the world go 'round? Obviously we are all different. We make all kinds of choices along the way. I've been lucky enough so that DW and I are pulling in the same basic direction. That really helps, but it's probably not the norm. Give and take for 30 years. It's worked pretty well.

Maybe those couples who are moving in different directions ought to sit down and talk it over. Maybe even come up with a plan....What a concept.

 

[bssc]

Hah! I have EE degrees. Do I do the electrical work? No way! Call a properly licensed electrician for that dangerous stuff!

Audrey

P.S. House wiring was NOT in the curriculum.

She installs x-ray machines for a living which involves lots and lots of wiring. She thinks that 110 is wimpy since her stuff is 440.

 

[wabmester]

I think a lot of girls are programmed bombarded by certain imagery from an early age that basically suggests to them that they need to be thin, have a HUGE wedding, live in a castle, and ride horses.

You just need to marry the one who believes in subverting the dominant paradigms.

 

[Nords]

She installs x-ray machines for a living which involves lots and lots of wiring. She thinks that 110 is wimpy since her stuff is 440.

That's an interesting attitude, not that I'm accusing Audrey of having it. Many people, except for the survivors, act as though 110V is way less dangerous than 440V.

My experience, personal & administrative, has been that there are far more mishaps with the "low"-voltage systems because everyone is so much more careful around 440V. But hey, dead is dead-- although the 110V systems can take a little more time to make you wish you were.

Submarines used to generate 440V AC for everything and then step it down or rectify it as necessary. Inverters were noisy pieces of mechanical crap that you either avoided or hated (or both). The latest design philosophy has been to build a humongous 700V DC bus and tap it through solid-state inverters. (It's thought to be more reliable and it's a lot less radiated noise.) It'll be interesting to look at the mishap numbers in a few years and see the trend.

Our photovoltaic panels only generate 24V. But if I didn't treat that with the same paranoia I used to reserve for 440 VAC, the current would launch me across the street like a fried sausage before I realized that I should have disconnected something.

 

[Meadbh]

I'd suggest, though, that they might fail to appreciate their husbands' needs now because their own needs and contributions were devalued over their working lives.

Great post, Caroline!
Each party entered those relationships with expectations that may or may not have been communicated. He thought she would take second place to his rise up the ladder. She thought he would keep her in the style to which she wished to become accustomed. But things changed, and they didn't talk it out. They are now reaping what they have sowed over many years.

 

[2B]

Running a submarine is way too dangerous to leave to the officers, and the electricians know that wiring a house is way too dangerous to leave to the engineers!

Unstopping toilets and clearing drain lines are within the capabilities of most chemical engineers.

 

[SlowTwitcher]

Lowflyer,
you're right of course. It always comes down to a bell curve. The couples originally
discussed are in the lower percentages in regard to communication, trust, financial
savvy, ...

Another thread (which I can't seem to find) discussed the quality of education in America including illiteracy, low test scores, etc... I wonder if this isn't just fine
though. After all, you don't need a college degree to perform half the jobs.
Nor would you want the tuition bills and headaches. As a youngster you get to
choose (for the most part) where you want to fit on the bell curve in regards to
success, measured only by earnings of course.

 

[kramer]

Here I saw 4 perfect examples of women who want to expand their lifestyle and maintain their leisure and freedom while keeping their husbands in the workforce. I know for a fact that 3 of the couples are better off financially (total savings and not just income) than me. I suspect all of them are. My DW seems just as incredulous that just because she fills her days with whatever she pleases that I would want to do the same.

2B, this was a great post. While this is obviously not true in every case (or even most), it certainly is common. This is quite close to the attitudes of the married folks in my extended family.

My mom almost worked my dad to death (he is dead now). It was so sad to see him continue working in his own tax and accounting business while my mom's housing improvement projects continued at an average pace of about $30K per year and miscellaneous spending was out of control. Even my dad's clients almost couldn't believe that he continued working in his sad medical condition and he even lost some business as some clients thought he wouldn't live much longer. We begged her to stop, begged her to downsize from their large home for years, to no avail.

Finally, when my dad literally could not work anymore and the checks stopped coming in as he sold his business, as in he could not even move around the office without extreme pain, she agreed to move to a place they had inherited earlier in the year when my dad's mom had died. It was sad to see my dad's last years lived out like this. He died just about three months after transitioning his business. He spent his last months worrying as my mom was threatening to buy a second home with their limited funds close to the grandkids. After he died, my mom decided not to do this.

Kramer

 

[Nords]

Unstopping toilets and clearing drain lines are within the capabilities of most chemical engineers.

No doubt, but what do you do with the explosive residue?

 

[LeatherneckPA]

BTW, the details differ but it isn’t too easy to predict what a man will be like 25 years down the road either. -Ha

Yep, we want a beer and we wanna see something naked.

 

[2B]

No doubt, but what do you do with the explosive residue?

Remember, I used to work at NASA.

 

[2B]

Yep, we want a beer and we wanna see something naked.

I would be slightly more specific with the last part but agree overall.

 

[Nords]

Remember, I used to work at NASA.

I usually tell our kid "Do it this way, but you don't wanna know how I learned that."

 

[LeatherneckPA]

I guess I'm pretty lucky in this regard. My DW has always been the frugal type. Add to that the fact that she is enraptured with the "simple, colonial lifestyle" and you have a person tailor maid for ER and simplifying our current lifestyle.

Somehow, she has also come to accept delegate me in the position of "head researcher in charge" as she "can't be bothered". "Besides, you retain everything you read so much better than me." (Only time in our 25 years that she tells me I'm better at something is when it's something she doesn't want to do.)

The plus side of this is that pretty much anything I suggest or say we have to do is almost always accepted, and we work toward that point together.

Yep, I'm a lucky man.

 

[Ibid]

I have a friend who's 40-ish and has designed her life around trapping financially successful husbands and digging for gold.

I see you're friends with my sister.

 

[Meadbh]

My parents had more of a partnership. They did all major planning together and made good financial decisions, though they each did keep independent accounts. While there was no frivolous waste, we did not want for the good things in life. Dad retired at 63, exactly when he wanted to, and golfed for the next few decades till his health gave out. My mom was really well provided for. When he saw her estate the lawyer wondered "where did she get all that money?"