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Old 12-24-2013, 10:25 AM   #81
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The "no clock" after 59.5 is true. I raised this question a short time ago, and Animorph pointed this out to me. See: AA during 3 years High Spending.

What this means is that Roth conversion should be used as an income-averaging method to reduce tax liabilities. Even in years when one does not need IRA withdrawal, he should draw some and transfer to his Roth account, to "bank" his lower tax bracket for later years.

I will be doing this every year, even though I am only 57 and still living off my after-tax account. Most of dividend-paying stocks are in my tax-deferred, while my after-tax accounts are meant for cap-gain stocks, which I can control the selling to keep within the 15% tax bracket for a couple.
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Old 12-24-2013, 10:59 AM   #82
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kaneohe,

Fairmark doesn't seem to specifically address my situation. I am still digging around their web site, though.

I plan to convert all of my tIRA to a Roth. (I started a small Roth long ago.) My original plan was to convert over 4 or 5 years, before reaching 70.5 and MRDs kick in, taking enough each year to live on and pay the taxes (worst case) and converting the rest.

At the end of the conversion process, I would start to withdraw from the Roth. I am already over 59.5 and taxes would already be paid on the Roth contribution/conversion. However, 5 years from the first conversion would not have elapsed yet.

Quote:
5 yr clocks on conversions unless stopped by 5 yr clock on original Roth and age 59.5.
The original Roth is old, but small.

Conversions would be substantial but recent. Does this override the start date on the original Roth and the fact that I am over 59.5?

Still not clear enough.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:07 AM   #83
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A qualified distribution is any payment or distribution from your Roth IRA that meets the following requirements.

1. It is made after the 5-year period beginning with the first taxable year for which a contribution was made to a Roth IRA set up for your benefit, AND

2. The payment or distribution is:
a. Made on or after the date you reach age 59Ĺ,
NW-Bound, this looks like it applies to my case. It appears that I can't withdraw anything without the 10% penalty from the first conversion until after 5 years, regardless.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:08 AM   #84
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Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:13 AM   #85
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Checking Animorph's comments and references now. The IRS seems to contradict itself.

It seems that such a withdrawal would not be a Qualified Distribution, but it may not be subject to the 10% penalty. Are you following this?
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:19 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_The_Gypsy View Post
NW-Bound, this looks like it applies to my case. It appears that I can't withdraw anything without the 10% penalty from the first conversion until after 5 years, regardless.
I think this is correct, at least as I understand what you are saying. To deal with this, I opened a $500 Roth for me and one for my then wife when they first became available. I don't even remember when this was, but it was > 5 years ago.

Ha
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:44 AM   #87
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Ha, I am going to go with the 5-year limitation for the time being unless and until I can confirm that the 59.5 exemption will apply.

The mind boggles.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:53 AM   #88
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How about this?

Quote:
Other early distributions. Unless one of the exceptions listed below applies, you must pay the 10% additional tax on the taxable part of any distributions that are not qualified distributions.

Exceptions. You may not have to pay the 10% additional tax in the following situations. You have reached age 59Ĺ.
I am still trying to figure out what part of a distribution from a Roth is taxable.

And..."may" not have to pay....?



It looks like anything but 100% caution 'may' be too risky.
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Old 12-24-2013, 12:23 PM   #89
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Fairmark had this entry in a little table:
Quote:
OVER AGE 59.5
FIVE YEARS OR MORE SINCE OPENING FIRST ROTH IRA

All Distributions Are Qualified

No Taxes
No Penalties
So, it looks like I would be OK. From all accounts, opening even a small a Roth many years ago makes the distributions I am interested in Qualified and >59.5 protects me from the 10% penalty.

I am still anxious about this interpretation, however.

Not in a hurry, fortunately.

Cheers,

Gypsy
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Old 12-24-2013, 12:44 PM   #90
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Back again.

Ed Slott's forum gives the same positive information, almost specific to my situation:

https://www.irahelp.com/forum-post/1...within-5-years

It is not logical, but oh, well.

Thanks all for very helpful inputs and patience.

Merry Christmas!
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Old 12-24-2013, 01:55 PM   #91
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If you (or someone) has a copy of Turbo Tax, you might try entering in the info for withdrawal of a rollover conversion after 59.5 but before 5 years after the conversion.

I will keep separate Roth IRA's for each Roth conversion year, and should have 5 years delay before withdrawals.

Certainly we could use better clarity from the IRS.
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Old 12-24-2013, 02:39 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_The_Gypsy View Post
Back again.

Ed Slott's forum gives the same positive information, almost specific to my situation:

https://www.irahelp.com/forum-post/1...within-5-years

It is not logical, but oh, well.

Thanks all for very helpful inputs and patience.

Merry Christmas!
Ed, sorry I couldn't give you the direct link to that Fairmark table. Had to clean house for the grandkid's arrival. Looks like you found the table by kawill. Not trying to make life difficult for you but if you think you found the right answer by finding 2 different confirmations online......... the table at fairmark was developed by kawill w/ significant input by and then an eventual blessing by Alan S. who knows a whole lot. I didn't look at your Ed Slott link but be aware that the Alanxxxxxxx (he changes the name from time to time) who is a primary poster there is the same Alan S. at fairmark.com so your confirmations may not be independent ones That said, the IRS words are difficult to interpret at times and I am banking my life on the kawill table and Alan S.'s rep. I've even proposed that IRS adopt the table in their Pub. 590 because it takes the thinking and ambiguity out of this whole process............so the choice is now yours......to worry since the inputs aren't totally independent or to accept..........
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