Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 11:37 AM   #121
Full time employment: Posting here.
Patrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern, Florida
Posts: 925
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
We are all wealthier and more comfortable because of it (even those folks losing jobs to competition).
This statement is totally illogical. How can folks standing in lines for unemployment and welfare be wealthier and more comfortable?
__________________

__________________
Retired in 2006 at age 49.

"Who among us is smart enough to learn from the mistakes of others?" - Voltaire
Patrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 11:46 AM   #122
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Leonidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright
Posts: 2,847
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
Is it?

Consider the implications if the majority of corporations in the US sacrificed efficiency and profitability for the sake of employing more people. The knee jerk reaction is that it would be all milk and honey. The unfortunate reality is that the whole of the US would eventually end up looking a lot like General Motors.
I have to agree with your post, although I think that executive compensation/pensions are too often ridiculously high.

Interesting thought - As investors we reward the CEO's of companies that cut costs, increase productivity/profitability and reward us with higher valuations and dividend payments. The more stock we buy the higher the valuations of the stock in those companies and that equals more financial incentives for the CEO.

As a regular guy who worked all his life and is looking forward to a pension, I look at CEO's who outsource jobs and raid pension plans as rat bastards. When I'm wearing my "investor" hat I don't care how much the CEO makes, or what the employment or pension costs are other than how they affect the company's financial picture. I'm a little conflicted, but it's not something that keeps me awake at night.

A golf buddy owns a company that outsources some of their manufacturing work to India. I asked him about that and he said that he would be out of business if it were not for the cheap labor costs he gets through outsourcing. He employs people in the U.S., Canada and Australia and says that while he "could" employ more people in those countries if he did his manufacturing there, he would wind up laying all of his employees off when he went out of business. "I send my low skill demand to India where they do it for less than a tenth of what I would have to pay for it here, and I keep highly skilled workers in higher paying jobs. It makes sense to me."
__________________

__________________
There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is having lots to do and not doing it. - Andrew Jackson
Leonidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:00 PM   #123
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
I look at CEO's who outsource jobs and raid pension plans as rat bastards.


Yep, they're doing what they gotta do, but they're rat bastards just the same!
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:04 PM   #124
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
This statement is totally illogical. How can folks standing in lines for unemploymnet and welfare be wealthier and more comfortable?
The answer to your question is that the unemployed worker in the US (and any other developed capitalist system) still has a higher standard of living then most other people in the world. It is economic dynamism and free competition that allows the wealth creation that elevates standards of living . . . even for those who are temporarily disadvantaged by change.
__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:12 PM   #125
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
I have to agree with your post, although I think that executive compensation/pensions are too often ridiculously high.
The executive compensation system in the US is undeniably broken, lacking any meaningful checks or balances. This is an inefficiency that should be fixed - but not necessarily by government. It is the job of shareholders to assert their authority as owners of the company to rein in executive pay. In recent years shareholders have become increasingly activist and, one hopes, will eventually take up the issue.

Your broader point is absolutely correct. In talking about these issues many folks often lose sight of the forest for the trees. The forest being a dynamic, free-market that increases national wealth and strives for full employment against the individual "trees" that are temporarily displaced as a result of progressive change.

__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:19 PM   #126
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
kcowan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pacific latitude 20/49
Posts: 5,714
Send a message via Skype™ to kcowan
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
Is it?

Consider the implications if the majority of corporations in the US sacrificed efficiency and profitability for the sake of employing more people. The knee jerk reaction is that it would be all milk and honey. The unfortunate reality is that the whole of the US would eventually end up looking a lot like General Motors.

An individual company in a niche business with a strong brand can, for a time, ignore economics and overpay and over-employ its workers. Eventually, though, another company will look to capture those excess profits for themselves forcing the benevolent company to either change or go bankrupt.

Although this may sound lamentable, this "creative destruction" forces greater output per worker which is the bed rock upon which national wealth is created - without which we would all still be scratching out meager livings on a farm. Be thankful for the profit motive. We are all wealthier and more comfortable because of it (even those folks losing jobs to competition).
There are 1000s of private companies that behave like the one cited. Most of the press is on the public ones. And even then on the ones with the greatest abuses. Even guys like Neutron Jack eventually get rehabilitated. Although Chainsaw Al was not so lucky.
__________________
For the fun of it...Keith
kcowan is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:25 PM   #127
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcowan
There are 1000s of private companies that behave like the one cited. Most of the press is on the public ones. And even then on the ones with the greatest abuses. Even guys like Neutron Jack eventually get rehabilitated. Although Chainsaw Al was not so lucky.
Possibly . . . but each one will eventually lose to competitors who are more ruthless in cutting costs, increasing efficiencies, and can expand through their access to the lower cost capital that is available to businesses with high returns on equity. It should be none other.
__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:28 PM   #128
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
Possibly . . . but each one will eventually lose to competitors who are more ruthless in cutting costs, increasing efficiencies, and can expand through their access to the lower cost capital that is available to businesses with high returns on equity. It should be none other.
That's capitalism baby!

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:33 PM   #129
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 23
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

"3 years to go" -- what a nice euphemism-- "those who are temporarily disadvantaged by change" !!!

Even before these putative workers were displaced by "economic dynamism" , they were already being screwed -- the minimum wage is now worth less than it has been at any time since 1951....don't rationalize this away with some half-baked economic theory about rampant capitalism always being good for "us". It is sheer greed and displacement upwards of society's wealth and you are an apologist for this greed.

You may have also noted in the news last week that the the USA, though one of the richest countries in the world, only ranks 23rd on the list of "happiest societies". Other capitalist economies like Ireland and Switzerland (also very wealthy) rank in the top 12 -- at least partly because those countries have in place programs that check the worst excesses of extreme capitalism ... free health care/generous unemployment and retraining schemes/generous leave policies etc etc. These are what make individuals feel valuable to a society -- unlike the U.S. where, if you "get downsized", you are on you own. Please let's not pretend that capitalism "has" to be the way it is in the U.S. -- other countries make capitalism work for the good of every citizen.... it could happen here today if we didn't have people like "3 years to go" concocting these self-interested theories about how capitalism "has" to be and what it "has" to do to work.
__________________
theronware is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:33 PM   #130
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Leonidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright
Posts: 2,847
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
In talking about these issues many folks often lose sight of the forest for the trees. The forest being a dynamic, free-market that increases national wealth and strives for full employment against the individual "trees" that are temporarily displaced as a result of progressive change.
I like the analogy. But having grown up in poverty I can never forget what it feels like to be "the tree" - or the tree's kid. I don't support the extremes to which some would like to carry their idea of "social justice", and that would include legislation to outlaw high executive compensation. But I do think the government should be/could be more effective in making sure that our businesses can be more competitive and be able to hire more domestic workers while also ensuring that our fellow citizens are actually prepared to fill the kind of jobs that the economy creates.
__________________
There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is having lots to do and not doing it. - Andrew Jackson
Leonidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:33 PM   #131
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
The answer to your question is that the unemployed worker in the US (and any other developed capitalist system) still has a higher standard of living then most other people in the world. It is economic dynamism and free competition that allows the wealth creation that elevates standards of living . . . even for those who are temporarily disadvantaged by change.
Damn straight!

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:39 PM   #132
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theronware
"3 years to go" -- what a nice euphemism-- "those who are temporarily disadvantaged by change" !!!

Even before these putative workers were displaced by "economic dynamism" , they were already being screwed -- the minimum wage is now worth less than it has been at any time since 1951....don't rationalize this away with some half-baked economic theory about rampant capitalism always being good for "us". It is sheer greed and displacement upwards of society's wealth and you are an apologist for this greed.

You may have also noted in the news last week that the the USA, though one of the richest countries in the world, only ranks 23rd on the list of "happiest societies". Other capitalist economies like Ireland and Switzerland (also very wealthy) rank in the top 12 -- at least partly because those countries have in place programs that check the worst excesses of extreme capitalism ... free health care/generous unemployment and retraining schemes/generous leave policies etc etc. These are what make individuals feel valuable to a society -- unlike the U.S. where, if you "get downsized", you are on you own. Please let's not pretend that capitalism "has" to be the way it is in the U.S. -- other countries make capitalism work for the good of every citizen.... it could happen here today if we didn't have people like "3 years to go" concocting these self-interested theories about how capitalism "has" to be and what it "has" to do to work.
A word from the "lunatic right wing fringe". To folks like me, we are already way too far down the road to leftist/collectivism in the USA. Worse,
I believe this will continue indefinitely. Bleeding heart libs think this is good.
Look-out-for-yourself hard-core capitalists think it's a disaster. Now,
I will concede that being born in the USA, white, middle class and smart
makes it a lot easier for me to stake out this position.

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:42 PM   #133
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet


Yep, they're doing what they gotta do, but they're rat bastards just the same!
Chainsaw Al is my hero!

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:50 PM   #134
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theronware
-- the minimum wage is now worth less than it has been at any time since 1951....don't rationalize this away with some half-baked economic theory about rampant capitalism always being good for "us".
Let's put the "golden 1950s" legend to rest.

1951 life was pretty good if you were a white male Anglo-Saxon American. Prejudice, discrimination, racism, and misogyny ran wild for the rest of your fellow patriots. Women, blacks, Hispanics, & Jews probably weren't too impressed with the minimum wage back then, let alone their "career opportunities".

Jobs were plentiful because most of the European & Asian economies had been destroyed by your peer group, much of your peer group had died in the process, and you survivors had all spent the last six years in an orgy of pent-up consumerism after four years of rationing. This economic advantage lasted until the 1970s, when all the new economies (and their brand-new factories) finally began to level the playing field. It's taken us a generation to get off our fat assets and learn to compete against (or work with) the rest of the world.

So let's not use 1951 wages as an example of how badly today sucks. Let's use 1941, or 1931, or even 1921. But not the wages earned at a peak achieved by virtue of world destruction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
Chainsaw Al is my hero!
JG
Which part impresses you the most-- the lying, the cheating, the stealing, the screaming, his marital status, the number of employees he put out of work, the millions he paid in settlements, or the fact that he's no longer a titan of industry either?
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 12:55 PM   #135
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 23
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

NOrds--

choose 1960 if it would suit you better, or 1970, or whatever. I wasn't idealizing the 50s -- simply citing the fact that inflation has been eroding the minimum wage since that date (as cited by the Nobel Prize winners in economics in their report this week). It was a statement of economic fact. It pertained not at all to the social/political context of the 50s.

theronware
__________________
theronware is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 01:02 PM   #136
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Let's put the "golden 1950s" legend to rest.

1951 life was pretty good if you were a white male Anglo-Saxon American. Prejudice, discrimination, racism, and misogyny ran wild for the rest of your fellow patriots. Women, blacks, Hispanics, & Jews probably weren't too impressed with the minimum wage back then, let alone their "career opportunities".

Jobs were plentiful because most of the European & Asian economies had been destroyed by your peer group, much of your peer group had died in the process, and you survivors had all spent the last six years in an orgy of pent-up consumerism after four years of rationing. This economic advantage lasted until the 1970s, when all the new economies (and their brand-new factories) finally began to level the playing field. It's taken us a generation to get off our fat assets and learn to compete against (or work with) the rest of the world.

So let's not use 1951 wages as an example of how badly today sucks. Let's use 1941, or 1931, or even 1921. But not the wages earned at a peak achieved by virtue of world destruction.
Which part impresses you the most-- the lying, the cheating, the stealing, the screaming, his marital status, the number of employees he put out of work, the millions he paid in settlements, or the fact that he's no longer a titan of industry either?
It's a joke man. Lighten up!

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 01:05 PM   #137
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Open markets and competition are all well and good, I'm a big fan, but I would like to see us do a better job of allocating the subsequent costs to society to those benefitting from the costs. Sometimes we seem to get it right, sometimes not. A more accurate allocation scheme would lead to more efficiencies.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 01:07 PM   #138
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Leonidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright
Posts: 2,847
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theronware
You may have also noted in the news last week that the the USA, though one of the richest countries in the world, only ranks 23rd on the list of "happiest societies". Other capitalist economies like Ireland and Switzerland (also very wealthy) rank in the top 12 -- at least partly because those countries have in place programs that check the worst excesses of extreme capitalism ... free health care/generous unemployment and retraining schemes/generous leave policies etc etc. These are what make individuals feel valuable to a society -- unlike the U.S. where, if you "get downsized", you are on you own.
Your reference to the survey threw me for a loop for a moment, because I was looking at some information on that topic a few nights ago. I could have sworn the US did much better than 23. Is this the survey you're talking about?

http://www.neweconomics.org/gen/uplo...2006194758.pdf

The New Economics Foundation's "Happy Planet Index" shows the US as 24th out of all Western nations in it's happiness index. But that differs from what I had looked at, the World Values Survey, which shows the US as 13th in the world (as opposed to the West), and ahead of countries like Canada, Japan, France, Italy, Spain, etc. in the category.

The NEF happiness index you reported to added some things to their research - such as "ecological footprint" - that may affect happiness but I don't see the appropriateness in using it in their calculations. They started with the same basic question as the World Values Survey - "How happy are you", and started adding in their own calculations. Of course, the NEF does have a political agenda. "The group's goal is to promote their progressive view of welfare economics and environmentalism.".

I think I prefer the WVS, called "...the most comprehensive and wide-ranging survey of human values ever undertaken..."

But, you could also compare it to the World Database of Happiness', report on Happiness in Nations, "Average Happiness in 90 Nations 1990 - 2000 (US in 12th place). Or, the Human Development Index, which like the NEF report includes lifespan. It goes on to include education levels and gross domestic product per capita at purchasing power parity (PPP) - the US is 10th on that list.
__________________
There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is having lots to do and not doing it. - Andrew Jackson
Leonidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 01:44 PM   #139
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theronware
NOrds--

choose 1960 if it would suit you better, or 1970, or whatever. I wasn't idealizing the 50s -- simply citing the fact that inflation has been eroding the minimum wage since that date (as cited by the Nobel Prize winners in economics in their report this week). It was a statement of economic fact. It pertained not at all to the social/political context of the 50s.

theronware
I would think an appropriate analysis would also include some discussion of how many people are actually getting paid the minimum wage at these various points in history. Even Walmart, with an average "associate" wage of $9.83 / hour, pays well above the current minimum wage. It may shock you to learn that Walmart even pays above the highest ever constant dollar minimum wage, which was $9.38 in 1968 ($1.60 in 1968 dollars).
__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 01:46 PM   #140
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theronware
You may have also noted in the news last week that the the USA, though one of the richest countries in the world, only ranks 23rd on the list of "happiest societies".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
The New Economics Foundation's "Happy Planet Index" shows the US as 24th out of all Western nations in it's happiness index. But that differs from what I had looked at, the World Values Survey, which shows the US as 13th in the world (as opposed to the West), and ahead of countries like Canada, Japan, France, Italy, Spain, etc. in the category.
Heh, heh, heh, heh.

24th, or 13th, or 10th, or whatever, out of ~178 nations . . . and your complaining about what, exactly?
__________________

__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What to do when you can't get life insurance? LRAO FIRE and Money 8 09-21-2006 11:10 AM
term life recommendations Rich_by_the_Bay FIRE and Money 9 08-24-2006 09:50 AM
Life Insurance - necessary or necessary evil? Rich_by_the_Bay FIRE and Money 64 03-10-2006 12:08 PM
Life insurance change ferco Other topics 6 02-14-2006 12:09 PM
What to do with Met Life Ins. Policy Adventuregirl FIRE and Money 6 02-04-2006 06:50 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:15 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.