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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 01:55 PM   #141
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Leonidas --

The prime mover behind the World Values Survey is Ronald Inglehart from the U of Michigan. His work is very controversial and in fact one of his main ideas has been completely discredited-- his argument that, as societies evolve away from industrialism, the role of religion in cultures would diminish hugely and secularism would gradually take over (see Wikpedia on this). So i'm not sure I put much credence behind his work on happiness/values either.

But your larger point is well taken. All "happiness surveys" are very subjective and are bound to reflect the ideas of the people who design/carry them out.

Still, i think we need examples of capitalist economies who do things better than us -- that look after *every* citizen better than we do AND that are highly successful economically. Otherwise we simply can't fix what's broken in our own system -- and we are at the mercy of people like *3 years to go* who present "Capitalism" as this juggernaut that we must bow down to and let on its merry destructive/creative way.

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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-14-2006, 01:57 PM   #142
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
I like the analogy. But having grown up in poverty I can never forget what it feels like to be "the tree" - or the tree's kid.
Wouldn't much of the world's poverty stricken be grateful for the opportunity to rise from the ranks of the poor to a position where they can contemplate "early retirement" within one generation?? What a great system!
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 01:21 AM   #143
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
That's capitalism baby!

JG
The topic is what is it like to have $100,000 a year to spend. Mostly it seems that what you would be able to do with others less fortunate than yourself is not worthwhile. The lessons of Charles Dickens are so easily forgotten. All we have in this world is time and the ability to convert to money is valued over all other.

When we all leave this world the ability to optimize capital will never be well thought of. My issue is not that Asia holds cheaper IT resources or manufacturing facilities can fabricate products at a fraction of the cost. It is if you hire an individual to do a job, stock prices should not dictate whether or not he/she gets to hold that job. The word of an individual should be counted on.

Any person that comes to realize they are thought of as no more than a socket wrench will never reach their potential, which should be the job of every CEO. If I had $100,000 a year I would live on $40,000 and give away the $60,000 to the people I thought would benefit the most.

With the time I would have I think that would be something I would enjoy. No amount of money could bring back my mother who died of lung cancer as I sat with her. But perhaps I could pay for another's medical care, she would like that.



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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 01:56 AM   #144
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Running_Man
. . . If I had $100,000 a year I would live on $40,000 and give away the $60,000 to the people I thought would benefit the most.

. . .
That is easier said than done. Is it better to pass out money to the homeless people on the street, to local organizations and charities, to national groups or to international groups? Which ones? Is it better to give away your money little bits at a time or to save it until you can fund a significant project for a worthwhile group? What if a loved one needs money and you've given all of yours away? Or what if disasterous financial times hit and you and your family suffer because you gave much of your money away?

I admire your sentiment, but deciding what to do with excess money is not simple.
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 02:25 AM   #145
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
That is easier said than done. Is it better to pass out money to the homeless people on the street, to local organizations and charities, to national groups or to international groups? Which ones? Is it better to give away your money little bits at a time or to save it until you can fund a significant project for a worthwhile group? What if a loved one needs money and you've given all of yours away? Or what if disasterous financial times hit and you and your family suffer because you gave much of your money away?

I admire your sentiment, but deciding what to do with excess money is not simple.
Generally "excess money" in ER does not exist, until you are dead.

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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 02:41 AM   #146
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Running_Man


When we all leave this world the ability to optimize capital will never be well thought of.

Any person that comes to realize they are thought of as no more than a socket wrench will never reach their potential, which should be the job of every CEO.

You write well, and obviously have endured some of life's hurts. We all have
(or will), I have my share. That said, I disagree completely with your position vis-a-vis capitalism, including the statement about "maximizing capital" being "never well thought of." Capitalism and those who practice it
are the "unknown ideal". A system that produces the greatest good for the
most people IMHO. People will slip thru the cracks (or simply can't
be helped/saved in lots of situations). I'll take my chances with capitalism.
I believe it's a natural law, not just a philosophy or manmade idea.

JG
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 06:35 AM   #147
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
The New Economics Foundation's "Happy Planet Index" shows the US as 24th out of all Western nations in it's happiness index.
I believe Americans are low on "happiness index" not because of social policies - but because Americans are "addicted to consumerism" and marketers pound people to define their life by the "stuff they have" (or don't have).

Back to OP, I truly believe a "consumerism addict" can be miserable "only" having $100K/year....

I met a lady who was miserable because her kitchen "only had one dishwasher" - all her friends had two dishwashers in their kitchens.

Hard to believe a person, hell a whole society, can be so misguided on why we are here on this earth....
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 09:40 AM   #148
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
That is easier said than done. Is it better to pass out money to the homeless people on the street, to local organizations and charities, to national groups or to international groups? Which ones? Is it better to give away your money little bits at a time or to save it until you can fund a significant project for a worthwhile group?
It is best to give it wherever giving gives you the most pleasure and satisfaction. That's capitalism.
Quote:
What if a loved one needs money and you've given all of yours away? Or what if disasterous financial times hit and you and your family suffer because you gave much of your money away?
You would have exactly the same amount of money left as if you had been spending it on trinkets instead of charity. Exactly, to the penny. $60K/yr to charity is exactly the same as $60K/yr to trinkets.

[/quote]
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 10:01 AM   #149
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delawaredave
I believe Americans are low on "happiness index" not because of social policies - but because Americans are "addicted to consumerism" and marketers pound people to define their life by the "stuff they have" (or don't have).

Back to OP, I truly believe a "consumerism addict" can be miserable "only" having $100K/year....

I met a lady who was miserable because her kitchen "only had one dishwasher" - all her friends had two dishwashers in their kitchens.

Hard to believe a person, hell a whole society, can be so misguided on why we are here on this earth....
In fact, there have been studies that show more money above the subsistence level results in dissatisfaction because of the choices that it brings, and with choices we tend to second guess whether we made the right choice. It is this expanded choice that generate an unneasy feeling that we might be choosing wrong.

Gee a third car (collector) or a 50" plasma home theater system? Tough choices. I never even considered the second dishwasher (except of course in the second home).
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 11:13 AM   #150
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Running_Man
When we all leave this world the ability to optimize capital will never be well thought of.
True at the micro level but exceedingly untrue at the macro level. Africa (and other similarly poor places) need the political, legal, and economic systems (namely democracy, rule of law - including property rights, and capitalism) more than they need any level of foreign aid or “compassion”. Consider the alleviation of suffering that these things could bring to the world's poor.

Capitalism - the world’s most successful anti-poverty program . . . by far!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Running_Man
It is if you hire an individual to do a job, stock prices should not dictate whether or not he/she gets to hold that job. The word of an individual should be counted on.
But most employment here in the states is "at will" . . . meaning that the employee can leave for greener pastures and so too the employer. So the notion that one side is "breaking their word" is not applicable in most instances. This is as it should be. I disagree that the employer has any greater responsibility to the employee than vice versa. In fact, flexible labor arrangements and labor mobility are key to economic stability and full employment - the more the flexible the better for both employee and employer alike. People forget that "job security" measures often result in higher levels of unemployment. So the trade-off is often between "job security" and "job scarcity" a.k.a the European model. As much as many wish otherwise, there really is no such thing as a free lunch.
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 11:54 AM   #151
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

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Gee a third car (collector) or a 50" plasma home theater system? Tough choices.
I will choose the plasma TV - it's way cheaper than a collector car.
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 12:03 PM   #152
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go

Capitalism - the world’s most successful anti-poverty program . . . by far!!
Is this a theory, an opinion or based on evidence or actual studies?
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 12:52 PM   #153
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

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Originally Posted by Spanky
Is this a theory, an opinion or based on evidence or actual studies?
I don't think this is even remotely questionable but if you need a "study" to confirm what your eyes tell you every day you can take a look at this "Economic Freedom and Per Capita Income" and this "Economic Freedom of the World, 2006 annual report". Anecdotally, compare the living standards between places like South Korea, and North Korea, Hong Kong and mainland China, East and West Germany pre-integration, and just about anywhere that offers economic and political freedom versus those places that don't.
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 01:19 PM   #154
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

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Originally Posted by youbet
You would have exactly the same amount of money left as if you had been spending it on trinkets instead of charity. Exactly, to the penny. $60K/yr to charity is exactly the same as $60K/yr to trinkets.
But it's not the same as if you saved and invested that $60K/yr. It is not the same at all. That's the point here. It is as easy to squander (or at least spend inefficiently) your charity dollars as it is to squander money on yourself. You still have to think about short-term vs long-term impact and implications of your charity spending. And once money is given to charity cause, it is not available for the next important cause you find worthy.

One option, for example, is to invest most of that $60K/yr but leave a large donation to one or more charity groups when you die. Is that more or less effective than handing out 6000 $10 bills to homeless people on the street each year?
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 01:34 PM   #155
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

3 years to go writes: "Capitalism - the world’s most successful anti-poverty program . . . by far!!"

I'll say this one more time....."Capitalism" is NOT ONE THING. Different forms of capitalism in place in different countries are more and less successful in combating poverty.

FYI, American capitalism since the post Reagan years is one of the least successful forms of capitalism in combating poverty.

(And, if you want a study that proves this, see the Luxemberg Income Study which compares Canada, France, Germany, Israel, Netherlands, Sweden, the U.K. and the U.S. in order to measure the forms of poverty prevailing among them. According to mid-1980s data, by all measures the U.S. had the highest poverty rates while Israel had the second highest poverty rate.)

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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 02:06 PM   #156
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
once money is given to charity cause, it is not available for the next important cause you find worthy.
Yeah...yeah...yeah.... There are a zillion reasons why hoarding every penny to yourself, despite being financially blessed, is the thing to do.
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 04:02 PM   #157
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

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Yeah...yeah...yeah.... There are a zillion reasons why hoarding every penny to yourself, despite being financially blessed, is the thing to do.
Ignorant, naive, and insulting in a single sentence. Very charitable. :P

Good work. But I just did you one better.

Just to make sure you noticed, I have not proposed a course of action regarding charity for myself or anyone else. My point is simply that giving intelligently and efficiently involves some thought and planning. You can do the wrong thing and end up hurting your own loved ones. I certainly have not proposed "hoarding every penny to yourself".
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 04:35 PM   #158
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

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Originally Posted by theronware
3 years to go writes: "Capitalism - the world’s most successful anti-poverty program . . . by far!!"

I'll say this one more time....."Capitalism" is NOT ONE THING. Different forms of capitalism in place in different countries are more and less successful in combating poverty.

FYI, American capitalism since the post Reagan years is one of the least successful forms of capitalism in combating poverty.

(And, if you want a study that proves this, see the Luxemberg Income Study which compares Canada, France, Germany, Israel, Netherlands, Sweden, the U.K. and the U.S. in order to measure the forms of poverty prevailing among them. According to mid-1980s data, by all measures the U.S. had the highest poverty rates while Israel had the second highest poverty rate.)

Theronware

Nothing you write disputes, or even addresses, anything I said. I never qualified "capitalism" to mean anything other than "capitalism". If you want to read arguments into my posts that were neither expressed, nor implied, to fill a seeming need to take a swipe at the US, feel free . . . I guess.

Having never read the Luxembourg study, I can't comment on it specifically. Care to post the study? A Google search doesn't turn up anything useful.


Edit:
From a quick scan of the limited information available, it looks like LIS measures income inequality, more than true poverty. The working definition of poverty for LIS seems to be some % below the median income level for each country. So the bottom % of every society is considered impoverished, regardless of how wealthy that bottom group is. Therefore, in one country where every citizen strugles to afford food "poverty" is considered "low" but in another country where everyone has plenty to eat "poverty" is measured "high" because some folks drive Mercedes while others drive Hyundais. :
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 04:45 PM   #159
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

I think capitalism is a great way to fight poverty, if you're rich. :

In any case, in its contemporary American flavor, capitalism certainly puts a significant burden on the "haves" to do what they think is right in terms of fighting poverty in their own way. Very easy to choose not to do anything, and that is our "right."

But whether you give time, expertise, physical labor, or money it is clear to me that it will take more than the government is interested or able to do in the face of our collective unfathomable wealth. Make your choice.
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?
Old 10-15-2006, 05:05 PM   #160
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Re: What's life like with 100K/year or more?

"a seeming need to take a swipe at the US"

3 years to go -- Of course your next move was going to be to suggest that I'm anti-American. That is the time-honored way to shut down anything that might turn into constructive criticism and lead to change. Sorry, but the U.S. hasn't gotten everything perfect and it does have things to learn from other societies. Other countries do things better than us (and vica versa, obviously)-- one of the things we do badly here is to distribute wealth in an equitable way. Other capitalist cultures have much fairer (and happier) systems worked out.

The study, not that it'll make any dent in your knee-jerk chauvanism, is found at:
www.leftbusinessobserver.com/income-news.html

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