
11182007, 03:16 PM

#1

Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 898

When TIPS aren't TIPS
Has anyone given much thought to the risk of iBonds or TIPS held outside of a ROTH getting a negative real rate of return?
I've been doing the math on some inflationhedging scenarios and it seems that if the inflation rate is high relative to the socalled "real" rates of return of these bonds (which is a distinct fear of mine moving forward) then your actual real rate of return can easily be negative (since you pay taxes on the inflation adjustment as well). The return rate can easily be negative even if you hold them in a traditional IRA. Only holding them in a Roth guarantees a positive rate of return.
For those of you that have TIPS, do you have then in a Roth? If not, is this highinflation tax effect something you've given much thought to?
__________________
__________________
Money's just something you need in case you don't die tomorrow.




Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today  It's Totally Free!
Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that EarlyRetirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

11182007, 04:38 PM

#2

Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,378

Yup, you could conceivably pay more in taxes that the bond coupon pays you. Of course, you'd eventually get it all back in the form of the inflationprotected principal at maturity (which would already have been taxed).
Or you could buy a TIPS fund like VIPSX or the TIP ETF, which both pay out the inflation adjustment as part of the dividend.
And in either case, remember that TIPS are state taxfree. Unlike CDs and most taxable money market accounts.
__________________
__________________



11182007, 05:09 PM

#3

Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 898

Quote:
Originally Posted by twaddle
Of course, you'd eventually get it all back in the form of the inflationprotected principal at maturity..

Yes, but even still, this could easily represent a negative real rate of return. In fact, in the case of iBonds with a 1.3% fixed portion, I'd say negative real return is a serious possibility over the next decade or so.
And if the teens look anything like the 70s, TIPS outside of a Roth would also give a negative return.
So what's the answer? Hold TIPs in a Roth, crowding out capacity to hold (presumably) higherearning assets in a taxfree account? (this seems unwise)
Or be prepared to sell your TIPs if inflation goes out of control, substituting with shortterm bonds that (presumably) take higher inflation expectations into account?
Or something else I'm not thinking of?
Or should I calm down, put my trust in Bernanke and quit worrying so much?
__________________
Money's just something you need in case you don't die tomorrow.



11182007, 06:27 PM

#4

Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,378

Forget the concept of "negative real return" for a bit, and just look at interest income and taxes. Let's imagine you're taxed at the 50% rate on interest income.
Let's say you have a choice between TIPS with a 2%+CPI yield and nominal treasuries with a 5% yield, both same maturity, same tax rate, same default risk.
To simplify, let's hold the TIPS bond via the TIP ETF, so you get the inflation adjustment as part of your dividend yield.
If inflation stays at a constant 3%, both bonds have the same yield, and both have the same tax hit.
If inflation goes to 10% a la the 70's, then the nominal bond still has the same 5% yield, but the TIPS went to 12%.
So, at a 50% tax rate, the aftertax yield on the nominal is 2.5%, and the aftertax yield on the TIPS is 6%.
As far as real return, you're right: the TIPS would give you a 4% real return, but the nominal bond would give you a 7.5% real return.
TIPS will always have a better return than the nominal treasury whenever the CPI > 3%.
I guess the moral of the story is that nobody in the 50% tax bracket should have any taxable bonds in their taxable accounts.
Thankfully, few retirees are in anything like a 50% tax bracket since we don't have much earned income. If you're in a high federal tax bracket, all of your bonds should probably be tax shelterd. I'm not sure why you distinguish between Roth and traditional IRA. The bonds will be fully tax sheltered in an IRA, but your IRA distributions are taxed as regular income no matter what the source (even stocks).
__________________



11192007, 04:57 AM

#5

Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 898

Quote:
Originally Posted by twaddle
I guess the moral of the story is that nobody in the 50% tax bracket should have any taxable bonds in their taxable accounts.
Thankfully, few retirees are in anything like a 50% tax bracket since we don't have much earned income. If you're in a high federal tax bracket, all of your bonds should probably be tax shelterd. I'm not sure why you distinguish between Roth and traditional IRA. The bonds will be fully tax sheltered in an IRA, but your IRA distributions are taxed as regular income no matter what the source (even stocks).

Yeah, thats the moral I've imbibed. The problem is, I have a relatively small percentage of my assets in tax advantaged accounts. I'd like to use them for other tax inefficient asset classes (say REITs) and for those with high expected returns over the next couple of decades.
Re the Roth vs. Traditional IRA  its a rather important distinction. If I buy 20 year tips in a traditional IRA I have the very same potential for negative real returns  its just that the negative return is unrealized until I withdraw the money. If I buy it in a roth I'm guaranteed the positive return.
Which leads me to my present conundrum  I've been investigating the possibility of using TIPS and iBonds to create a synthetic annuity, if you will, to provide a good chunk of my needed retirement income. This would allow me to reduce or even eliminate withdrawals from the rest of my portfolio in year that the market isn't doing well, and will also dramatically lower downside risk. The problem I'm discovering is it doesn't seem to make sense to do this unless it can be done in a tax free account. But thats a really scarce resource for me (maybe 16% of my total assets) so I'm really restricted in what I can do.
__________________
Money's just something you need in case you don't die tomorrow.



11192007, 08:43 AM

#6

Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 961

Maurice,
A while ago, I created two spreadsheets for calculating the real aftertax values of TIPS and I bonds in taxable accounts:
After tax I bond values, and
I bonds vs. TIPS
They may or may not be helpful in your situation.
Also, I'm a little confused about this statement:
Quote:
Re the Roth vs. Traditional IRA  its a rather important distinction. If I buy 20 year tips in a traditional IRA I have the very same potential for negative real returns  its just that the negative return is unrealized until I withdraw the money. If I buy it in a roth I'm guaranteed the positive return.

The money in the Roth is just the aftertax equivalent money of the deductible Traditional IRA [or 401(k)] money. For example, at a 25% tax rate, $7,500 in the Roth would be equivalent to $10,000 in the deductible Traditional IRA. Does this change your conclusion of buying the TIPS in the Roth vs. trad IRA?
FWIW, here a quick summary of a very good paper on Asset location: Wrong Place, Wrong Time: Asset mislocation could cost investors up to 20% of their aftertax returns, according to a new study
Personally, I think that given the very tax efficient vehicles for the higher expected returning assets [like small stocks, EM stocks, etc.] via index funds/ETF/TM funds, I don't think it makes much sense to put those in either Trad IRAs or Roth IRAs. For REITs, check out Bernstein's A limited case for Variable Annuities, which may have you considering Vanguard's VA REIT for REITs.
 Alec
__________________



11192007, 09:11 AM

#7

Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,811

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Re the Roth vs. Traditional IRA  its a rather important distinction. If I buy 20 year tips in a traditional IRA I have the very same potential for negative real returns  its just that the negative return is unrealized until I withdraw the money. If I buy it in a roth I'm guaranteed the positive return.

It looks like we've got two posters who think there's a difference between Roth and traditional, and one who thinks they're the same.
I'll vote on the side that says there's a "guaranteed" positive real aftertax return on TIPS inside a traditional IRA, and it's the same return you get on a Roth. (I'm assuming the same marginal tax rates at the beginning and end of the time period.)
Suppose I have $1,000 in TIPS in the IRA today and I'm in a 30% marginal tax bracket. If I withdraw the money, I pay $300 in taxes and have $700 of aftertax spendable cash.
Now suppose I leave the money in the TIPS. Over the next n years, the CPI doubles, but the accumulated dollar value of the TIPS triples. I've got $3,000 inside the IRA. I withdraw it, pay $900 in tax, and have $2,100 of aftertax spendable cash.
Note the ATSC went from $700 to $2,100 while the CPI doubled. In constant dollars the ATSC went from $700 to $1,050, clearly a positive return. In fact, you gain 50% over n years.
With the Roth, you get the same percentage gain in aftertax spendable cash. If the $1,000 had been in the Roth, you would have had $1,000 of spendable cash by withdrawing today. Leaving it in the Roth results in $3,000 of nominal dollars after n years. That's $1,500 in constant dollars, for the same 50% over the same time period.
__________________



11192007, 05:52 PM

#8

Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 337

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Has anyone given much thought to the risk of iBonds or TIPS held outside of a ROTH getting a negative real rate of return?

I have at least considered it. However, I still have a TIPS ladder in a taxable account because I don't have a more attractive alternative available.
I mainly console myself with the thought that if inflation gets high enough that my after tax real rate of return is negative, it will hurt, but not nearly as much as using a noninflation adjusted ladder would have hurt!
The "better" my nonequity investments do, the more I will pay in taxes. About the only way I know of to avoid those taxes is to invest poorly!
__________________



11202007, 04:13 AM

#9

Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 898

Alec  thanks for the spreadsheets, very useful.
Re Traditional vs Roth  I admit I was a bit myopic in my comment and was referring to my own case where traditional IRA is not pretax money. Therefore the difference is huge.
Having said that, I still see a difference between traditional and roth.
Lets take a concrete example.
Two investors, both in 35% tax bracket now and in 20 years.
Roth Investor  puts 1000 in a Roth IRA, pays 350 in taxes.
TIRA Investor  puts the 1350 in a traditional IRA (assume pretax money)
Both buy 20 yr TIPS.
(two simplifying assumptions that should not effect illustrative nature of the below  inflation stays constant and coupons are reinvested at same rate)
Three scenarios  inflation at 3%, 5%, and 10%
Scenario A  3% inflation
Roth Investor has $2,653.30 after 20 years (1000*[1+.02+.03]^20 )
His initial investment was 1350, so his CAGR is 3.44% (exp{ln[(2653/1350)/20}1)
TIRA investor has $3,581.95 after 20 years, pre tax. tax is 781.18 (.35*[35811350]). Proceeds therefore are $2,800.77. his CAGR was 3.72%
Scenario B  5% Inflation:
Roth Investor has $3,869.68 for a CAGR of 5.41%
Traditional nets $3868.14 for a CAGR of 5.4%
Scenario C  10%
Roth Investor has $9,646.29 for a CAGR of 10.33%
TIRA investor nets $8,937, for a CAGR of 9.91%
Thus:
3% inf: TIRA outperforms Roth, both outperform inflation
5% inf: Outcomes about the same, both outperform inflation
10% inf: Roth out performs inflation, Traditional lags.
Please if anyone can find any problem with my math, let me know (a distinct possibility at 5am!)
__________________
Money's just something you need in case you don't die tomorrow.



11202007, 10:07 AM

#10

Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 337

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Lets take a concrete example.
Two investors, both in 35% tax bracket now and in 20 years.
Roth Investor  puts 1000 in a Roth IRA, pays 350 in taxes.
TIRA Investor  puts the 1350 in a traditional IRA (assume pretax money)

First off, if you start with $1,350 and take away a 35% tax, you will have $1350  $472.50 = $877.50. So your Roth initial value should be $877.50 instead of $1000.
Second, a traditional pretax money IRA would be taxed on the WHOLE BALANCE, not just the earnings. So instead of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
tax is 781.18 (.35*[35811350]).

You would really have tax is (.35*$3581) = $1253.35.
There may be additional problems, but that is as far as I took it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Please if anyone can find any problem with my math, let me know (a distinct possibility at 5am!)

Let this be a lesson, never invest at 5am!
__________________



11202007, 10:54 AM

#11

Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eee Bah Gum
Posts: 21,076

Quote:
Scenario C  10%
Roth Investor has $9,646.29 for a CAGR of 10.33%
TIRA investor nets $8,937, for a CAGR of 9.91%

Even if we had 10% inflation over the next 20 years and the tax rates stay the same and your math is correct the difference is so small that I wouldn't sweat it. I would use TIPS inside a Roth rather than tradional IRA simply because I believe tax rates will more likely be higher in 20 years than the differences in returns, so pay uncle Sam now. Plus Roths have various other advantages.
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Now it's adventure before dementia



11212007, 07:08 PM

#12

Confused about dryer sheets
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Even if we had 10% inflation over the next 20 years and the tax rates stay the same and your math is correct the difference is so small that I wouldn't sweat it. I would use TIPS inside a Roth rather than tradional IRA simply because I believe tax rates will more likely be higher in 20 years than the differences in returns, so pay uncle Sam now. Plus Roths have various other advantages.

For the same reason you can't be confident about tax rates twenty years from now, you also can't be confident that Roth income will be tax free.
Same reason you can't depend on SS.
"It's time to end the freeloading by wealthy Americans who pay no taxes and only consume".
And we meet altmin from hell, which taxes SS, Roth IRAs, long term capital gains, whatever.
So along with the threat of inflation, one must consider the threat of adverse tax law changes.
__________________



11212007, 09:33 PM

#13

Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 337

I thought of a nicer way to express the math.
Suppose a 35% tax rate, or equivalently you get to keep 0.65 times the amount of money.
Suppose you are going to invest until you double your money. So the initial investment is times 2.
Let X be the amount of money you are investing.
Then a traditional IRA is equal to ((X * 2) * 0.65).
While a Roth IRA is equal to ((0.65 * X) * 2).
__________________



11222007, 10:04 AM

#14

Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,811

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Alec  thanks for the spreadsheets, very useful.
Re Traditional vs Roth  I admit I was a bit myopic in my comment and was referring to my own case where traditional IRA is not pretax money. Therefore the difference is huge.
Having said that, I still see a difference between traditional and roth.
Lets take a concrete example.
Two investors, both in 35% tax bracket now and in 20 years.
Roth Investor  puts 1000 in a Roth IRA, pays 350 in taxes.
TIRA Investor  puts the 1350 in a traditional IRA (assume pretax money)
Both buy 20 yr TIPS.
(two simplifying assumptions that should not effect illustrative nature of the below  inflation stays constant and coupons are reinvested at same rate)
Three scenarios  inflation at 3%, 5%, and 10%
Scenario A  3% inflation
Roth Investor has $2,653.30 after 20 years (1000*[1+.02+.03]^20 )
His initial investment was 1350, so his CAGR is 3.44% (exp{ln[(2653/1350)/20}1)
TIRA investor has $3,581.95 after 20 years, pre tax. tax is 781.18 (.35*[35811350]). Proceeds therefore are $2,800.77. his CAGR was 3.72%
..........................
Please if anyone can find any problem with my math, let me know (a distinct possibility at 5am!)

Sorry for the slow response, but it looks like bamspd has already covered it. If you start with $1,350 pretax, your 3% scenario will result in $2,328 after tax in 20 years either way.
For the Roth, taxes take the $1,350 down to $878, then investment returns grow that to $2,328.
For the Traditional, investment returns take the $1,350 up to $3,582, then taxes shrink the $3,582 to $2,328.
__________________
__________________




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)


Thread Tools 
Search this Thread 


Display Modes 
Linear Mode

Posting Rules

You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off




» Recent Threads













