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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....
Old 12-19-2006, 03:02 PM   #41
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....

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Originally Posted by winnie
Actually, this idea about map vs. territory was formulated (famously) by Alfred Korzybski.

Winnie
Good call, I just happen to have a copy of Science And Sanity on the shelf next to my desk.
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....
Old 12-19-2006, 03:06 PM   #42
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....

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Originally Posted by winnie
Actually, this idea about map vs. territory was formulated (famously) by Alfred Korzybski.

Winnie
I guess I didn't say that Hayakawa invented the idea, only that he was to me an accessible and able promulgator of these ideas. I waded through Korzybski's book also, but compared to Hayakawa he is a turgid and needlessly wordy author. Also, Hayakawa was right there in San Francisco, refusing to submit to the hysteria that bowled over many a college administrator in those tumultuous years. So I could see and hear him as well as read his books.

As I see it, the bedrock message of general semantics in the map/territory contrast. General semantics is not owned by any one person, any more than semiotics or utilitarianism or Epicureanism is.

Remember-one territory, many maps.

Ha
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....
Old 12-19-2006, 03:29 PM   #43
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....

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Originally Posted by HaHa
I guess I didn't say that Hayakawa invented the idea, only that he was to me an accessible and able promulgator of these ideas.

Remember-one territory, many maps.

Ha
I guess I agree, and don't mean to hijack the thread. But, I can't resist adding in Baudrillard's postmodern updating of these ideas -- much scarier and vertigo-inducing. He argued that, in todays technology-saturated environment, the comfortable line between map and territory no longer holds, as it did for Korzybinski in the 30s and Hayakawa in the 50s/60s:


"Today abstraction is no longer that of the map, the double, the mirror, or the concept. Simulation is no longer that of a territory, a referential being or substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality: A hyperreal. The territory no longer precedes the map, nor does it survive it. It is nevertheless the map that precedes the territory - precession of simulacra - that engenders the territory. (Baudrillard, 1994, p. 1)

Computer software is one of his examples of the disappearance of the real (territory) in the face of the imaginary (map). And, I guess one could argue that valuations on Wall Street -- to the extent that they are completely uncoupled from reality sometimes (think Enron) is another example of the "hyper-real" -- the disappearance of the real in the face of the imaginary.

ok. I'll shut up now.
winnie
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....
Old 12-19-2006, 03:35 PM   #44
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....

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Originally Posted by winnie

ok. I'll shut up now.
winnie
Oh pooh, winnie. You don't have to do that.

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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....
Old 12-19-2006, 03:52 PM   #45
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....

Hmmm

I vaguely remember - 'the word is not the thing' from communications 101 in the early 60's at the old U of W. Good old S.I.H. can't remember his book?

heh heh heh - go Huskies maybe next year.
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....
Old 12-19-2006, 04:01 PM   #46
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....

Quote:
Originally Posted by winnie

"Today abstraction is no longer that of the map, the double, the mirror, or the concept. Simulation is no longer that of a territory, a referential being or substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality: A hyperreal. The territory no longer precedes the map, nor does it survive it. It is nevertheless the map that precedes the territory - precession of simulacra - that engenders the territory. (Baudrillard, 1994, p. 1)

Computer software is one of his examples of the disappearance of the real (territory) in the face of the imaginary (map). And, I guess one could argue that valuations on Wall Street -- to the extent that they are completely uncoupled from reality sometimes (think Enron) is another example of the "hyper-real" -- the disappearance of the real in the face of the imaginary.

ok. I'll shut up now.
winnie
As we would have said, back in the day, "wow, that's some heavy Sh**." So is he really saying that there is no real or just that we are now creating our reality?
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....
Old 12-19-2006, 06:07 PM   #47
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Re: Where to put cash if you don't trust the market....

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Originally Posted by donheff
As we would have said, back in the day, "wow, that's some heavy Sh**." So is he really saying that there is no real or just that we are now creating our reality?
There is a real. BUT, mostly, it is no longer accessible to us, so it may as well not exist. So, we create our reality....our illusions are more powerful than the material. Illusions drive profit. People really got rich from the Enron sleight of hand. People really became impoverished from it. The illusion drove the reality, and not vice versa. But, at times, the Real can reassert itself (the unwinding of the Enron scandal). And I'll bet its reasserting itself all over Mr. Skilling right about now. For Baudrillard, though, the reassertion of the Real is the exception rather than the norm in our media-ted society.

Winnie
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