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Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-04-2004, 08:48 PM   #1
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Who is working with DFA?

OK, my reading here took me to Scott Burns, who took me to Paul Farrell, who took me to Paul Merriman, who introduced me to DFA.

I confess to not having read Bernstein yet, or I would have known before that DFA stands for Dimensional Fund Advisors.

So, who thinks it's Worth It? *To pay an investment advisor 1% (I found one asking for 0.9% on the first $500,000 (www.ifa.com) for the privilege of getting into these academically pure funds? *I'm eager to figure this out.

Anne, who wants to work less and skate more
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-05-2004, 08:21 AM   #2
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

Well there is plenty of historical and anecdotal evidence that some of DFA's funds beat their equivalent no load vanguard by a bit in some analyses. That having been said, I've never seen a stand up long term analysis that said they have been consistently winners or obviously anything that says they'll continue to be so.

I have however seen plenty of data slicing "studies" that can prove almost anything, so lacking anything more thorough, I'm skeptical.

I'd have to see a lot of hard evidence before I'd give up 1%...and is that one time or annually?

Lastly, I've seen some "purer" investments that sliced a few bits of percentage point to advantage turn to crap when the "purity" part underperformed and the "impure" part had its day.

Skating: roller or ice? I was an avid hockey player and ice skater when I lived in Boston, turned to wheels when I moved to California. Bought my new house partially on the basis of having a 10 mile paved recreation path 2 blocks away that runs through orchards, rice paddies and farms, in the shadow of a small range of buttes. Also hundreds of miles of paved paths on top of our local levies that give excellent views of the area.
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-05-2004, 08:47 AM   #3
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

If I am not mistaken, Vanguard has recently changed the way they do their index funds so that they are now closer to what DFA uses.
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-05-2004, 09:23 AM   #4
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

I'd be interested in seeing anything about that vanguard change; I hadnt heard of it.

My understanding is that DFA's offerings differ in that their value funds are "more value concentrated" (ie, riskier[arguably]) than vanguards. They appear to me to often use a narrower index in a particular category. They lack some offerings, such as money markets or TIPS. They have some microcap and other asset classes vanguard lacks.

The 'risk' and 'breadth' things seem to be a recurring theme at vanguard, although I think perhaps for the better. For example, their high yield bond and REIT funds sometimes have lower yields/returns than other funds, but the credit quality is better on vanguards. Similarly, vanguard tends to have more holdings numerically than other funds within an asset class. Sometimes that "concentrated" thing works well during certain time periods; the broader and higher quality offerings may be better in longer time periods.

I read through a handful of reports just now. For what its worth, these sorts of "marketing documents" are things I used to produce and I can smell a tilted one a mile away. I need to go take a shower right now before I'll feel completely clean.

Reminds me of when I worked for a company that had a net 3% market share, but we produced a foil that showed we had a 60% market share* with the footnote showing that in companies that bought 100 or more of the type of product we made, and used them in a certain way (which was the way most companies would LIKE to think they'd use them, but in reality only about 9 companies did), we sold to 60% of them. Non exclusively.

Scumbags like me are why you can never trust anything you read.

The skinny from what I just read is that in certain fund classes, there are advantages to owning DFA. In others, there is little difference. In others, vanguard has an advantage. DFA's management costs appeared to be almost uniformly higher than vanguards by about half the difference where DFA had an advantage. Then there is that annual advisor load levying.

It appears to me that in certain asset classes...historically...DFA has had a net advantage vs Vanguard, after all costs are taken into account. The net advantage portfolio-wise appears to be in tuned asset allocation rather than individual fund performances. Perhaps with a battery of predetermined allocations covering 5 or more asset classes, DFA and its advisors may do a better job than an uninformed investor buying 2-3 asset classes through vanguard on their own.

I did also find a DFA advisor web site that let you put in your risk/return/timeframes and coughed out a detailed DFA asset allocation from 10% to 90% stock. One could take that, buy the equivalent vangard funds or ETF's, fill in one or two non vanguard funds in some non-covered areas, and probably do as well or better in the long haul. Or buy the Edmunds or Bernstein books and figure out your own asset allocation.

Or maybe its just my predeliction against paying a fund manager and against sleazy slimy sales pitches that use too much slicing and misdirection.
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-05-2004, 05:37 PM   #5
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

I posted a similar question earlier this year and you can see a few more links and the responses here, http://early-retirement.org/cgi-bin/...num=1075341904

I am still undecided about the decision myself. I believe like TH that you have to be careful about the advertising slant that some purported studies have. From what I have read, there seems to be a consensus that there might be an advantage. Here is an article from Bernstein that you might find interesting on what is involved to do it well on your own. http://www.indexfunds.com/archives/a...of_success.htm

I have pretty much concluded that the main factor is how much time and effort you want to put in yourself and how you are about letting it alone and not worrying about how the portfolio is doing. If after you understand all that is involved, you still feel comfortable then go for it. If you dont, use a low cost advisor and check in a few times a year. You may gain a little with an advisor over the do it yourself crowd or may loose a little, but I dont think the differences will be huge. Bernstein suggested that if you use an advisor that you aim to have the advisor fees plus fund expenses be around 1 percent.
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-05-2004, 07:17 PM   #6
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

TH,

If you log on to www.vanguard.com and check
the stock index funds you will see that many
have indeed changed the target index in the
past year. The "other information" tab on
the individual fund gives info on the investment
style and policy. I assume they changed the
tracking indexes to be more competitive with DFA.

Thanks for your input on my proposed "splitter"
portfolio changes.

Cheers,

Charlie (aka Chuck-Lyn)

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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-05-2004, 11:10 PM   #7
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

I have seen some verbage around that (which is a little confusing), to wit:

"Prior to May 16, 2003, the fund's target index was the S&P SmallCap 600/BARRA Value Index. The fund's investment performance is compared to that of the Spliced Small Cap Value Index, which reflects the old target index prior to May 16, 2003, and the current target index thereafter."

Which couldnt have been worded more oddly.

What I do notice is that none of the indexes I own, and none of the half dozen I sampled that have similar statements to the above, show a capital gain or loss generated in the last 2 years.

What are the odds that a fund could change its core index, which would mean divesting itself of or buying up dissimilar holdings, and not generate a capital gain or loss?

Some neat accounting, or a surprise is lurking in wait...I'd hate to get slammed with the capital gains involved with an index changeover a month or two after buying into a fund...especially if some of those holdings are realllly old.
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-06-2004, 08:06 AM   #8
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

Quote:
you will see that many have indeed changed the target index in the past year.
I don't have the article links handy, but there was speculation that the reason behind the index changes was because Vangard is mad at S&P over the S&P 500 licensing. More specifically, Vanguard wanted to create an ETF based on the S&P 500 (like the SPDRs) but S&P sued them and told them their licensing didn't allow for that and they had to pay boatloads more money to do that. Some think Vanguard's moving to another company's indexes are largely a result of that tiff.
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-06-2004, 08:48 AM   #9
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

This is pure speculation, but I don't think moving
from one target index to another virtually identical
target index will involve much shifting of assets.
Maybe a little at the fringes. So, no sweat TH, IMHO.

Cheers,

Charlie (aka Chuck-Lyn and still mad about Fallujah)
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-06-2004, 12:51 PM   #10
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

True if they're the same, in which case there isnt a shift at vanguard to DFA style indexes, which bear poor resemblance.

DFA largely uses Fama French and CRSP indexes, while Vanguard uses S&P/Barra and Russell indexes. Changing from s&p/barra/russell to a substantially similar index with a different name wouldnt generate a capital gain, but changing from the s&p/barra large value to the fama french large value definitely would. The holdings and percentages are highly dissimilar.

Michaels post indicated that he had seen something about vanguard changing their index style to become closer to DFA...if they had done so, a huge capital gain would have been generated. Yes?
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-06-2004, 02:02 PM   #11
 
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

DFA doesn't actually try to perfectly match any particular index. Rather, each fund will have an "investable universe." The US Equity "universe", for instance, consists of all NYSE, AMEX, and NASDAQ NMS companies and excludes ADRs, REITs, foreign companies, and closed-end investment funds. As an example, DFA Micro Cap can buy companies that fall in the smallest 0-4% of this US Equity universe. Portfolio companies that are in the 5% range can be held. When a portfolio company reaches 6% or higher, it is sold.

Not quite as simple as saying a fund is trying to track the Russell 2000, but this strategy has some advantages. One that comes to mind is that DFA doesn't have to buy or sell based on changes to the relevant benchmark index. In the small-cap arena especially, this is a big positive. If another institutional investor wants to unload a name that is relatively illiquid, DFA can negotiate a discounted block trade.

DFAers talk more about gaining exposure to an asset class than they complain about tracking error.

Anne, to address your question of whether or not working with a DFA-approved advisor is worth it, I'd say that you need to evaluate your own investment behavior. If you are prone to making significant, spur of the moment changes to your portfolio based on a fear precipitated by what some talking head on CNBC said, working with a competent advisor who has access to DFA may be worth it. If you are very disciplined and have the knowledge to design an appropriate portfolio for yourself, it may not be worth it to you.

AW
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-06-2004, 02:29 PM   #12
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

Th, I can't believe Vanguard would be stupid enough
to change the tracking index if large capital gains
would result. That would be a marketing blunder
of the 1st order. Remember that most stock funds
had substantial capital loss positions going into
2003. Perhaps that would explain why no capital
gains resulted from the index change.

Cheers,

Charlie (aka Chuck-Lyn)
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-06-2004, 03:58 PM   #13
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

I agree with you.

Despite some losses, it still seems highly unlikely that a major index changeover could have occurred without either SOME capital gain or loss.

The S&P/Barra large value for example has as its top 10 holdings (12/31/03):

Citigroup Inc. 4.15%
Exxon Mobil Corp. 3.95%
Bank of America Corp. 3.37%
Wells Fargo & Co. 2.86%
American International Group Inc. 2.46%
Verizon Communications 2.12%
J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. 2.10%
ChevronTexaco Corp. 2.03%
Time Warner Inc. 1.92%
ConocoPhillips 1.62%

While the Fama French large value contains:

VIACOM INC 3.94
TIME WARNER INC 3.57
INTL PAPER CO 2.50
ALLSTATE CORP 2.43
GENERAL MTRS CORP 2.40
COMCAST CORP NEW 2.26
UNION PAC CORP 2.24
FORD MTR CO DEL 2.04
LIBERTY MEDIA CORP 2.04
METLIFE INC 1.84

Not even close. Which would tell me that if vanguard changed its indexes (whether because of a spat with S&P or to match DFA), SOME kind of capital event would have occurred.

Also makes me consider further on indexes...with the same general "large cap value" two major index providers only have one similar top 10 holding.

I guess the saying "one of these things is not like the other..." really applies...
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-06-2004, 09:12 PM   #14
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

well, at least for Vanguard Small-Cap Value Index Fund (VISVX), the performance info on Vanguards website has the following foot note:

** S&P SmallCap 600/Barra Value Index through May 16, 2003, MSCI US Small Cap Value Index thereafter.

And the 2003 annual report says (with minimal effort to line up the columns...):

Quote:
The three Vanguard funds met their objectives of tracking their
respective indexes, though the margins between fund and index
results were wider than usual. As you know, the funds switched to
new target indexes on May 16 (hence the "spliced" indexes cited
in this report, which incorporate returns from both the old and new
benchmarks).To reduce transaction costs, the actual transition of portfolio
holdings to reflect the new
indexes took place over several weeks, introducing some tracking error
that, in all three cases, worked in the funds' favor.
Furthermore it says
Quote:
Your Fund's Performance at a Glance December 31, 2002-December 31, 2003
Distributions Per Share
Starting Ending Income Capital
Share Price Share Price Dividends Gains
Small-Cap
Investor Shares $15.66 $22.60 $0.204 $0.000
Admiral Shares 15.66 22.60 0.224 0.000
Institutional Shares 15.66 22.61 0.234 0.000
Small-Cap Growth
Investor Shares $9.17 $13.08 $0.022 $0.000
Institutional Shares 9.17 13.09 0.030 0.000
Small-Cap Value
Investor Shares $8.52 $11.49 $0.198 $0.000
Institutional Shares 8.53 11.50 0.204 0.000
Now this seems pretty strange, no capital gains distributions! And the comments also indicate that the MCSI index is more tax efficient. The 0's in the above table make me think about Chuck-Lyn's comment on accumulated losses, and checking the year end 2003 balance for small cap growth index fund showed :

Accumulated Net Realized Losses (103,168 )

So, for the small cap funds at least, they did switch indexes, and it appears that they used accumulated net realized losses to avoid tax impact to investors, and still have some left over for this year. Good guess ChuckLyn!

Wayne
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-08-2004, 07:04 PM   #15
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

Hello and thanks to all of you -

I found ANOTHER investment advisor who doesn't use % of assets, but a very low flat fee (it varies with some client variables; mine would be on the low end but considerably less than 0.5% of assets).

I have long understood the issue regarding passive indexing being preferable to managed funds, and I'm not the impulsive switcher type (as evidenced by my having a bunch of old 401(k)'s and IRA's in separate accounts, which is ANOTHER problem!). I'm still pondering, though, because the DFA approach (to choose stocks based on empirical criteria within strict asset classes), as opposed to index funds using benchmarks, seems to have considerable theoretical merit. I do NOT have the mathematical patience to work out precisely how much cheaper Vanguard will be in the long run.

And, of course, without being able to predict the future, there's no way to tell if the difference in fees is going to be worth it.

I am, however, very interested in the debate and the thought that many of you have put into this, and I'll be hunting up all those links. THANKS!

Anne, who gets to skate again tomorrow despite bruises from yesterday
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-08-2004, 08:01 PM   #16
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

Oh, and it's ICE skating. In a rink. With lots of equipment on and a stick in my hand. Started at age 48. My daughter's been playing for 7 years, in the goal for 5 years. You know that saying about insanity being hereditary - you get it from your kids?

Annd
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-08-2004, 11:10 PM   #17
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

Remember the indexes are regularly adjusted by their authors within asset class boundaries as well.

DFA simply appears to tweak theirs a little by some criteria I am unable to determine. Sounds like a managed approach to indexing. I'm sure someone has a book or paper explaining that approach and a few thousand people swear its the best and a few thousand think the other few thousand are nuts.

In all the analyses I looked at, it appeared that taking both fund shops and making portfolios of roughly equivalent portfolios - and i'm handicapping DFA slightly in that they have more offerings in many areas and they like to use them - and i'm equally handicapping vanguard because THEY have more offerings in some areas and dont care if you use them...the net difference per 100k is a few thousand a year. Either way. Depending on whose analysis you read. And which slice of the pie in terms of number of years and when the years start and stop.

The stuff DFA is missing is sometimes important...among them a TIPS fund and a MM fund...and i'm not sure if they can do bank account EFT transactions, check writing and all that sort of stuff...or if thats even important to you.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you would be better off with either vanguard or dfa than almost anyone else. If you feel the advisor would help you set up a better portfolio than you would on your own with vanguard, then it makes sense.

I just could never bring myself to pay someone extra to do something I feel ok about doing myself, simply to get access to somebody's funds who hide behind the curtain.

Ice. And a goalie. When I played you were considered a big fat wuss if you wore a helmet and you werent the goalie. I played a little right wing, defense and ended up in goal after one of my knees started acting up when I was a teen. The one thing I miss about iceskating vs rollerblading is it feels a lot better when you fall on ice and slide. The good news is I've only taken a dive once on wheels, so apparently the road rash is good incentive to stay upright.

You do remember the old saw that hockey players almost always end up marrying figure skaters, because they spend so much time in practice on ice they're the only members of the opposite sex that they see?

I've seen male figure skaters. I wish your daughter the best of luck... :P
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-09-2004, 07:35 AM   #18
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

TH -

Continuing thanks. In my read of it, if one hires an asset manager, part of the + is that s/he can allocate some of the assets to places other than DFA, such as a TIPS fund or REIT or Aunt Matilda's IPO, should the client be so inclined. The asset managers are steeped in DFA philosophy, but are not part of the organization, and work with Vanguard, Schwab, etc.

Ahh, but times have changed in the rinks. My daughter, the goalie, has had a crush on a Junior hockey player who assisted at hockey camp last summer! <grin>

This is a terrific discussion!

Thanks, still reading.

Anne
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-14-2004, 01:08 AM   #19
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

Quote:
Hello and thanks to all of you -

I found ANOTHER investment advisor who doesn't use % of assets, but a very low flat fee
Hello Anne,

The only fixed fee advisor I know is Evanson Asset. I would be interested in knowing of another advisor using a lower fixed fee.

Thanks

Oliver

Evanson fee structure
Typical fees run from $375 per quarter or $1500 per year to $750 per quarter or $3000 per year regardless of account size.
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Re: Who is working with DFA?
Old 04-14-2004, 11:42 AM   #20
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Re: Who is working with DFA?

When I see numbers like that, I wanna know if theres any sex included. :-]

A lot of money for a guy to ask you six questions and based on the answers, pick from one of ten preconfigured portfolios and send your check in.

Now if DFA allowed me to buy one of those ten preconfigured ports directly without the management fee, I'd consider it.
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