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Old 04-25-2013, 02:27 PM   #61
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Add another one to the list, employees of financial services firm. I have worked in a few large and small fin'l serv firms and really shocked to see how many have no clue or interest in their 401k investments. I currently work for a small firm where half of the staff are clueless, one of them is the COO with an MBA!
Having an MBA is no guarantee of getting investing knowledge. I'll bet your COO has an accounting degree and while it gives you an investing knowledge base, it doesn't teach you about investing. As I recall, in my MBA program had one investment accounting course that was about analyzing annual reports and one financial investment course, which was about analyzing stocks. Not everyone took either course, let alone both of them (I did ). While they provided you with the tools, they didn't really teach you how they were used. That came later with on the job experience.

I'd say the best prof was for capital projects class. He was the only one to encourage the class to have an emergency fund and an exit strategy. While it didn't take at first, I saw the wisdom during my first job after graduating. It's come in handy twice now and will once more when I retire.
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:37 PM   #62
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As actually applied in pitches:
A "Sophisticated Investor" is one whose pockets are worth picking; someone with more money than sense; a muppet...
I agree. When I became a law firm partner, "wealth advisors" started coming out of the woodwork. When other attorneys shared their active trading strategies or stock tips, I just smiled and nodded.
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:47 PM   #63
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Who is to say that they are clueless and I am not? We are all struggling to tread water in a sea of decisions. We all essentially bet our lives on the validity of our decisions. We don't necessarily know "the end of the story" immediately and what seems smart to us now may turn out to be a huge mistake. We have to base our decisions on what seems sensible to us at the time.

But who's to say that I made the right decisions? Maybe I am the one who is clueless. I knocked myself out trying to learn to invest and then implementing the best plan I could figure out in order to achieve my goals. But maybe the Bogleheads are really not as wise as I think and are "full of canal water". Maybe I would have been a lot smarter to spend my money on doo-dads instead of investing it in index funds. Maybe these funds are the next big bubble, just dying to burst and decimate my savings. Only time will tell.

It is hard not to criticize others for making different choices than mine on personal finance or investing matters. When I hear that a loved one has invested a large amount in gold, or is keeping every cent in the bank at 0% interest, it is like a stab wound in the heart. When I feel like that, I try to remember that I am not the sacred chalice of the One True Way of investing.
In one of the actual cases I am talking about, the individual (58 yo) volunteered to me he 'has nothing saved, and hasn't even thought about retirement yet' - it's not a matter of investment choices/decisions. Another (62 yo) told me he has 'almost nothing saved, his retirement plan is selling the small IT service business he owns.' He has 3 employees and himself, I'd be surprised if the business is worth that much.

It was a question of bright people failing to save & invest, to plan and/or failing to understand their investments or fees paid to begin with - not a question of specific investment choices. FWIW
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:54 PM   #64
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I have three friends who's choice was to invest in their own small business. My friends were drawn into the enterprise by the potential upside and the fact that their limited resources at the time, while enough to start a small business, was not enough to grow into a retirement. To my conservative eye, starting any small business was too much of a risk to take with any amount of money, much less the bulk of what would otherwise have been someone's retirement, but if everyone believed as I did, there wouldn't be any upstarts.

Now, to be fair, two of the three are still in business. They whine incessantly about getting deeper and deeper into debt (even the one who's already 66), but they're still going, so the jury is still out, I suppose, as to whether the investment choice was a good one or not, but none of the three could be accused of not knowing the risk they took going into this, or failing to plan. They just didn't succeed/haven't yet succeeded.
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:13 PM   #65
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In one of the actual cases I am talking about, the individual (58 yo) volunteered to me he 'has nothing saved, and hasn't even thought about retirement yet' - it's not a matter of investment choices/decisions. Another (62 yo) told me he has 'almost nothing saved, his retirement plan is selling the small IT service business he owns.' He has 3 employees and himself, I'd be surprised if the business is worth that much.

It was a question of bright people failing to plan and/or failing to understand their investments or fees paid to begin with - not a question of specific investment choices. FWIW
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Maybe I would have been a lot smarter to spend my money on doo-dads instead of investing it in index funds.
Beyond our investment choices, who is to say that even our choice to invest at all is necessarily the wisest thing to do with our money? The future is unknown to us and if we could predict it, we would all be wealthy. But we cannot. While not probable in my opinion, it is possible that Zimbabwe-like inflation or some similarly wild and unexpected occurrence will take all of our money and investments or even our entire economy or civilization down. If that happened, maybe I would wish I had bought what I could, while my money was worth something.

My point is not that this is probable, but that what we do with our money depends on the assumptions that we accept. How can we presume to judge what assumptions others accept, when we cannot know for sure what the future may hold? Until it happened, I never dreamed that a nationwide housing crash was a realistic thing to expect, and I am sure that is not the last surprise that life has in store for me.

We would like to think that saving and investing wisely would bring us better results in the long run, and I assume and believe it will. I have bet my life on my conviction that it will. From what I have seen and learned in life this is my best shot. Still, it's really hard to know for sure since results over the long run are by definition a work in progress. So, we assume.

I should have added the phrases in blue to the sentence below.

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It is hard not to criticize others for making different choices than mine on personal finance or investing matters. When I hear that a loved one has invested a large amount in gold, or is keeping every cent in the bank at 0% interest, or is spending every last cent he has or can borrow, as though there was no tomorrow, it is like a stab wound in the heart. When I feel like that, I try to remember that I am not the sacred chalice of the One True Way of investing or handling money.
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:14 PM   #66
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Having an MBA is no guarantee of getting investing knowledge.........
.....or any knowledge at all in my experience. Back in 2000 I went to a talk by our MBA qualified COO who declared we had to grow by 14% every year....a few of us made allusions to grains of rice on chess board and geometric progressions.....he wasn't happy.
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:21 PM   #67
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I agree. When I became a law firm partner, "wealth advisors" started coming out of the woodwork. When other attorneys shared their active trading strategies or stock tips, I just smiled and nodded.
Some people are dumb when it comes to investing and some are too clever. I have a friend who is a CFA and owns an small insurance brokerage. He does very well and is a big fan of active trading and alternative investments, reads Barrons and likes to time the market. He got onto "portable alpha" the other day. I also smiled and just said that my goal is alpha = 0 and beta = 1 with the certainty of minimizing fees.
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:21 PM   #68
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So another common trait seems to be specialization. We are highly competent in our specific field, lame in others.
i.e. - Einstein could calculate the amount of energy needed to slow a 4,000lb vehicle traveling at the speed of light to a complete stop. But would you want him to perform the brake job later?
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:31 PM   #69
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I have always equated this lack of incentive by my fellow Americans when it comes to, lets call it personal finance, to their perceived inability to complete their own federal income tax forms.

If you simply read the forms (even doing it via stubby-pencil) and follow the seemingly complex directions you can do your taxes with no assistance. Millions do. With the addition of excellent, affordable tax software, i.e. Turbotax, it is almost too simple. Yet there are millions of "tax offices" in every city in America.

Once folks become personally motivated and read a few good investing books and peek in at a few groups like this one, most can easily learn enough to be successful as an investor.
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:44 PM   #70
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Great thread. Have really enjoyed reading these posts. Kind of funny that this topic has come up now b/c I just gave my partner two books (Boglehead guide to investing and Jack's Common Sense book). He is amazingly sharp and probably has the highest mental biologic potential of anyone I have met (came from relatively poor family in MS and got in medical school in 3 years, etc). I am an incurable cheapskate and don't buy random gifts for my partners but he wants to learn more, so I thought I would oblige. Working in the medical profession, surrounded by many with 6 figure incomes, I am continually amazed at the lack of common sense with money management. If you read Millionaire Next Door, when the author describes Drs. North and South, I feel somedays like I'm surrounded by the Dr. Souths of the world.
And...although it is presumptious of me to say that being a grasshopper with all the anal planning and saving is a better path than being an "ant", I still think it beats the heck out of the stress of paycheck to paycheck living or working a menial job in my 70's.
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Old 04-25-2013, 04:00 PM   #71
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Scary stuff....good thread topic.

Two recent examples of how to do it wrong (or not at all):

My sister-in-law's son who works in Silicon Valley just allowed his in-laws to move in with them . He had to put a small addition on his house in Sunnyvale to accommodate them. Not because they (the in-laws) are physically incapacitated, but they dropped their entire retirement nest egg on a business venture (at 65 years old) in Pennsylvania. Bad news followed. Apparently they owe the IRS a good sum also. No one in the family is really talking about this situation.

My neighbor two houses away, who is a salesman for an electrical products company (wife stays home with the 5 year old son that they had @46 years old), recently asked me what to DO about their retirement planning. Apparently, they have not saved much and only have a small amount in his company 401k, of which they borrowed against for the house purchase a few years ago. I'm not sure what to tell this guy at his age (51) except put his wife to work and save her salary, which does not appear to be in the cards based on her spending habits. Plus the big mortgage, young kid, etc, etc....

What are all these people going to do when the work force no longer wants them? Not everybody can move in with their kids.
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Old 04-25-2013, 04:06 PM   #72
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Financial education for kids can be found... if you look hard enough. My kids will both be taking a 3 week class in investments this summers at the Gateways School. And my older son's teacher does some lessons on interest, compound interest, etc during a math module... and she makes the kids model out loans and see how much interest is paid over the course of a mortgage.

But yeah - there are a lot of people who *should* know more about finances than they do. We're in the midst of our division being acquired by another company. It is shocking to hear how many people are freaking about the loans on their 401ks, and who contribute less than the matching amount. These are middle aged, very bright, engineers.
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Old 04-25-2013, 04:24 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by aja8888
Scary stuff....good thread topic.

Two recent examples of how to do it wrong (or not at all):

My sister-in-law's son who works in Silicon Valley just allowed his in-laws to move in with them . He had to put a small addition on his house in Sunnyvale to accommodate them. Not because they (the in-laws) are physically incapacitated, but they dropped their entire retirement nest egg on a business venture (at 65 years old) in Pennsylvania. Bad news followed. Apparently they owe the IRS a good sum also. No one in the family is really talking about this situation.

My neighbor two houses away, who is a salesman for an electrical products company (wife stays home with the 5 year old son that they had @46 years old), recently asked me what to DO about their retirement planning. Apparently, they have not saved much and only have a small amount in his company 401k, of which they borrowed against for the house purchase a few years ago. I'm not sure what to tell this guy at his age (51) except put his wife to work and save her salary, which does not appear to be in the cards based on her spending habits. Plus the big mortgage, young kid, etc, etc....

What are all these people going to do when the work force no longer wants them? Not everybody can move in with their kids.
So I take it, you are not good enough friends to be blunt, huh? I am no financial guru, and have the backstop of a pension, but so do my friends and they are not in great position. 4 of them I have bluntly spoke to them. One has converted and seen the light. The other 2 recognize the problems they have created and are at least thinking about it. The fourth one won't bring it up anymore, so I do not discuss it anymore either. I got in their face about their finances because they have all wondered how I was able to retire so soon despite being in the same field and 2 of them making more than I did. We are good enough friends where we can have these lively/personal discussions though.
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Old 04-25-2013, 04:32 PM   #74
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So I take it, you are not good enough friends to be blunt, huh? I am no financial guru, and have the backstop of a pension, but so do my friends and they are not in great position. 4 of them I have bluntly spoke to them. One has converted and seen the light. The other 2 recognize the problems they have created and are at least thinking about it. The fourth one won't bring it up anymore, so I do not discuss it anymore either. I got in their face about their finances because they have all wondered how I was able to retire so soon despite being in the same field and 2 of them making more than I did. We are good enough friends where we can have these lively/personal discussions though.
With the SIL, it's their issue and her son and son's wife seem to be handling it. Crazy situation though.

With my neighbor, we just started this discussion last week and I'm not sure where to go without more details. I know their parents are passed (both sides) and whatever came of any inherited funds are probably long gone. In my conversations with him (and her in one), they are somewhat clueless and seem to take the path of "oh well, it will work out...somehow".

I mentioned a family will probably need upwards of $1 million to have a decent retirement in today's dollars 10 -15 years from now. That just opened their eyes. With a 5 year old at their ages, they are not well prepared to even deal with that. They have a 26 year old son who is gone from home on his own. I would suspect there are many families with similar situations that are unfamiliar with how to prepare for one's self in today's economic environment.
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Old 04-25-2013, 04:48 PM   #75
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I have another theory.

Others mentioned how money is a taboo subject but I think it's deeper than that. How many people here really share specific financial information with family and friends? For the most part, we don't even discuss how much we make, own, save or spend with our closest family including children and parents.

It's funny that people can share on on the E-R.org boards and bare their financial details in anonymity but wouldn't consider doing the same to the people we are closest to.

While lots of people in this thread have talked about education it's all done in the abstract for the most part.

The other thing I think is so critical is that how you save or what investment you save in is WAY less important than how much you save. I'm sure everyone on this board has made financial decisions they would like to take back (multiple for me). Saving 20-25% of ones income over a long period can make up for a lot of poor decisions even for things like using an adviser or buying a higher fee fund. The high consumption lifestyle is such a killer of long-term financial health.
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Old 04-25-2013, 04:57 PM   #76
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As many have pointed out, intelligence has very little to do with this. I know some very dimwitted types who are LBTM and well prepared for retirement. Some of the most ill prepared, smart folks have a very worry free, "live in the present" outlook on life. Many are happy, well liked, generous and a joy to be around. They do not dwell on the future or worry about potential bad things happening. I see others who worry about everything, and their life is one of fear and paranoia. Are they well prepared financially. Yes. Are they happy. Maybe, if it is worry and anxiety that makes them happy, along with clucking about those who are less prepared. My point is we are all different and prioritize different things. One outlook on life is not necessary better or worse, just different. If one is will to live with the outcomes, I say more power to them.

Sometimes I am even jealous.
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Old 04-25-2013, 05:33 PM   #77
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Good thread.

My sister, who has a doctorate (I never finished mine), is the same way. Some of these folks don't even want to HEAR about money management.

It is kind of like an overweight person who doesn't want to look at or talk about dieting. (I avoided THAT topic for years.)





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Interesting replies. It seems so far the whys include:
  • Lack of (personal finance/investing) education
  • Ability and interest are not necessarily correlated
  • Simple 'keeping up with the Joneses' is a (much) higher priority
  • [edit add]Some people plan to work as long as they can, retiring isn't a priority (yet)
If I missed another, it's unintentional.
I think Beryl hit on an important angle, and maybe the second bullet point is a rephrase of the same idea. I would put it this way: there is a huge distance between intellectually understanding what you ought to do and actually carrying out the actions of doing it. It is the distance that every counselor, self-help book, or treatment program try to help people bridge, when they are dealing with just about every self-defeating behavior on the planet.

I really think the major factor here is motivational, conscious and unconscious. People have all kinds of ways of keeping unwanted or difficult ideas out of their awareness or downplaying them (defense mechanisms like denial, minimization, or distraction). People don't want to know; they don't want to deal with it; it makes them uneasy; they would rather not face it. And so they find other things to attend to, reasons not to deal with it, excuses why it can wait.

It's the same thing you see in dieting, exercise, quitting smoking, cutting back on drinking, etc. People generally know what they need to do. That's generally pretty simple stuff, just as it is here (we're dealing mostly with common sensical stuff, not rocket science). But if it were just a matter of knowing what you ought to do, the diet and self-help industry would be gone, most therapists and psychiatrists would be out of business, and most treatment centers would be shuttered. There's a huge gap between intellectual understanding and action.

And there's another rule in operation here, too, which is, whatever area you are defended in, you will act stupid in that area. I think that's why you see "clueless" behavior. It's that this area stirs anxiety, they defend against it, and because of those defenses, their brains aren't able to function effectively in that area, and so make poor decisions.

Anyhow, I see this primarily as a motivational issue, not a "lack of information" issue. Dave Ramsey makes a similar point on his radio show. It's 10% information, 90% motivation.
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Old 04-25-2013, 05:33 PM   #78
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Great thread. In my opinion, there are different sets of skills that people have. I know people who are very brilliant academically who don't have the sense to come in out of the rain. I also know people who come across as dull who have a lot of common sense. In terms of money management, I think it is a skill. Something like the ability to be on time - some people are ALWAYS late. Maybe it is partly related to how you were brought up, but I know siblings where one spends constantly and the other saves a lot. I think that for me, personal finance might be my strongest suit. But if I had to run for political office, I'd be terrible. I wish I knew the answer to this question.
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Old 04-25-2013, 05:38 PM   #79
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I think people really don't have good math or finance skills for the most part - I mean, they may be good at math but they don't know how to use it to analyze investments. A fault of our educational system - which was designed when defined benefit plans were common and people stayed in the same job for years.
+1

I also think many folks are slow to recognize change, and tend to spend more time clinging to or hoping for the "good old days" to return, instead of accepting that things have changed and figuring out how they need to change with them. Perhaps it is because they are too trusting of the companies they work for.
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Old 04-25-2013, 06:24 PM   #80
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Beyond our investment choices, who is to say that even our choice to invest at all is necessarily the wisest thing to do with our money? The future is unknown to us and if we could predict it, we would all be wealthy. But we cannot. While not probable in my opinion, it is possible that Zimbabwe-like inflation or some similarly wild and unexpected occurrence will take all of our money and investments or even our entire economy or civilization down. If that happened, maybe I would wish I had bought what I could, while my money was worth something.

My point is not that this is probable, but that what we do with our money depends on the assumptions that we accept. How can we presume to judge what assumptions others accept, when we cannot know for sure what the future may hold? Until it happened, I never dreamed that a nationwide housing crash was a realistic thing to expect, and I am sure that is not the last surprise that life has in store for me.

We would like to think that saving and investing wisely would bring us better results in the long run, and I assume and believe it will. I have bet my life on my conviction that it will. From what I have seen and learned in life this is my best shot. Still, it's really hard to know for sure since results over the long run are by definition a work in progress. So, we assume.

I should have added the phrases in blue to the sentence below.
+1. There is too much tendency to say "My way good, other ways bad!

Maybe god has decided that anyone who dies with net worth >$1mn goes straight to hell. Then we might wonder who is smart!
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