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Old 09-23-2008, 07:33 AM   #81
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who is this american majority of which you speak? the only person i know who thought she benefited, but who i wouldn't even characterize as "complicit in the greedy debt orgy", was my now-dead-to-me-cousin who atm'd her house until she had to sell for less even than its construction value, after having lived there for about 15 years already. shameful what equity she wasted, but she paid that price personally without burdening anyone by it. in fact, i've no doubt she made the banks happy & the recent buyer quite happy, having paid zero for the property and nothing for the location and got the building itself at discount.

the only flipper i ever even met was my fly-in, flew-out across the street neighbor who ended up selling distressed. among my friends, i know of no one else who benefited the slightest from this disaster. i can hardly think of any of my associates who hasn't owned their home for at least 5 years. in fact, i can think of just one who bought in 2003 and no one since then. (edit: also one friend who bought retirement home and will pay his mortgage despite the downturned value.) so i don't know the majority of americans, but who i know are sure suffering now with homes worth less than if this bubble never was. never mind that we are threatened with a collapsed economy & somehow we've inherited the burden to fix it. we are they with plenty of cause to anger.
even back in 2004 the nightly news did profiles of people who bought a home they couldn't afford with an ARM loan just to say they lived in a nice house for a few years and sold it to make money

a few people doesn't make entry level houses in california go up to $600,000 or more. might not be the majority, but on average 8-10 million homes were sold every year in the bubble years. add in some kids and a spouse and that's a large percentage of the US population
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Old 09-23-2008, 08:32 AM   #82
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I think it's one part - they don't really understand what's going on and one part - the majority of Americans are complicit in the greedy debt orgy that's been going on, and it's a little hard to be righteously outraged when you've been part of the problem.
While we/they might not understand the minutiae, it doesn't seem that hard to figure that living on the edge is dangerous. A lot of phoney-baloney "high finance", and slick marketing does not an economy make. We're drunk on our own Kool-Aid.
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Old 09-23-2008, 09:56 AM   #83
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fine and good for them. including all those who bought on conventional mortgages & in nonbubble areas & adding the guilty children to that number doesn't make me a member of the complicit majority and i've paid plenty for rights to anger. no one's offered me any kool-aid. how rude! though just yesterday at lunch my brother did echo what some other friends are now saying: that they should max out their credit cards and take mortgages on their paid off houses so they can get bailed out too.
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Old 09-23-2008, 10:00 AM   #84
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Congress is currently in session debating the largest financial rescue plan since the Great Depression. The last I heard, the package would amount to $700 Billion dollars.

The thing that bothers me the most about this this financial crisis is that the average citizen does not seem to be angry. Anger is a natural human emotion and is not always negative. In fact, sometimes it's needed for survival.

I believe that in some cases change cannot take place until their is collective anger. Our largest financial corporations have done a number on American citizens. The U.S. government was simply negligent in their fiduciary duty to its people.

We, our children, grandchildren and perhaps even our great-grandchildren will be paying now be on the hook for a sum of money that could eventually approach one trillion dollars. This comes at a time when two expensive wars are being fought on foreign soil, not to mention the domestic war on terrorism. This is all occurring while while 40 million Americans are without health insurance and the cost of health care is spiraling out of control. Both our government and corporate leadership has simply let us down.

Could someone please tell me why the average citizen is not angry about what is now taking place? I do not believe that any significant and meaningful change will transpire until people become mad about the unfairness of what is currently taking place in our country.

Do you remember the movie, Network? We desperately need some people like these who are willing to open up their windows and shout out, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"


Truth, I don't think the American public understands the implications of this bailout as they have been inured to outlandish deficits over the last 8 years. The tires are flat but the American people are still driving the cart...only when the wheels fall off will they look back and decry the state of things even though the warnings are plain for any enlightened person to see.

People are not interested in issues that don't directly affect them and the public just views the issue as one large number bandied about in the media. The media has failed to explain the direct implications of selling out your country to foreign interests as they go into debt. There has been no direct link between increased debt and increased taxes just to pay the increasing interest costs, never mind paying off the debt. People canít even balance their own bank accounts, how do you expect them to manage a country, view policy or make enlightened decisions on whom to vote for and why.

There is a lack of leadership at the highest levels and itís business as usualÖall parties circle the wagons to eliminate the direct issue but there is no introspection of the root cause to the problem or how the model is bust. You canít spend your way out of a deficit. There has to be some pain and belt tightening. Your kids will pay for all this excess and that is the sad part, and your kids will be poorer for the lack of leadership and governance.


On the bright side, the drop in the US dollar will probably help your manufacturing businesses, although more of your debt and corporations will belong to foreigners.
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Old 09-23-2008, 07:33 PM   #85
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I'm very angry!

I hope there is a full investigation into Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac and anyone with dirt on their hands is held accountable. I don't care who it brings down including Obama or McCain. This is bigger then politics - this type of greed and dishonesty will continue until people are held accountable.

DH and I live below our means, don't carry any debt outside of our fixed rate mortgage, have diversified investments and cash on hand, so we will be okay. Regardless, we will still be impacted by this mess!!!
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Why is America Not Angry?
Old 09-23-2008, 09:15 PM   #86
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Why is America Not Angry?

If America is not angry I hope I never see angry.

Ha
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Old 09-23-2008, 10:57 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum View Post
who is this american majority of which you speak? the only person i know who thought she benefited, but who i wouldn't even characterize as "complicit in the greedy debt orgy", was my now-dead-to-me-cousin who atm'd her house until she had to sell for less even than its construction value, after having lived there for about 15 years already. shameful what equity she wasted, but she paid that price personally without burdening anyone by it. in fact, i've no doubt she made the banks happy & the recent buyer quite happy, having paid zero for the property and nothing for the location and got the building itself at discount.

the only flipper i ever even met was my fly-in, flew-out across the street neighbor who ended up selling distressed. among my friends, i know of no one else who benefited the slightest from this disaster. i can hardly think of any of my associates who hasn't owned their home for at least 5 years. in fact, i can think of just one who bought in 2003 and no one since then. (edit: also one friend who bought retirement home and will pay his mortgage despite the downturned value.) so i don't know the majority of americans, but who i know are sure suffering now with homes worth less than if this bubble never was. never mind that we are threatened with a collapsed economy & somehow we've inherited the burden to fix it. we are they with plenty of cause to anger.
Well, I didn't read your whole post (CAPS please). But I was conflating the entire debt situation (credit cards, etc.) with the mortgage/housing debt since it's all part of the debt orgy that's gone on. And yes, I believe it's a majority, but no, I don't have stats for you.
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Old 09-24-2008, 07:51 AM   #88
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A recent poll shows that 55% of Americans oppose the $700 Billion Rescue Plan:

Americans reluctant to fund bailout, poll finds - Los Angeles Times

Here are four alternatives to the bailout:

washingtonpost.com
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:26 PM   #89
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I like the idea the washpost presented: Rather than buying the distressed assets, loan the banks money with the assets as collateral. Then the banks are on the hook for eventually selling the assets to pay off the loans, so the taxpayer doesn't take on unnecessary exposure.
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:27 PM   #90
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FBI said to probe Fannie, Freddie, Lehman, AIG | Reuters
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:33 PM   #91
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I agree there should be a thorough probing...
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:26 PM   #92
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I think America is too angry now, since they've been egged on my the news media: "$2,300 for every man, woman, and child -- what dya think about that, America, huh?"

They still don't understand it, but now they are angry.
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:48 PM   #93
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They still don't understand it, but now they are angry.
Ha! Well at least we are now up to par for the course...
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:04 PM   #94
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I am angry... but have been away due to no electricity at home for 10 days....

I just sent letters to both Senators from my state saying I will not vote for anybody who votes for the bailout... maybe if MORE people used the power of the vote things might be different...

Heck, I kind of feel like I am a socialist country... not a capitalist one...

I can guarantee that the markets will work it out... there are many smaller banks that are not in trouble and they are willing to make loans...
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:55 PM   #95
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I couldn't tell you why some people get angry and some don't.

I lived in la in 1992 (was in middle school) and we had the rodney king riots. 50 people dead, and a billion or two in damage?

Yet you think about life back then, it seemed pretty good (regardless of skin color).

-It was less congested
-Homes were $250 k instead of $650 or $700k
-Gas was a $1 something instead of $3 or $4 something
-Better jobs, higher pay
-Less debt
-Less gap between rich and poor
-People weren't being scammed by mortgage lenders, etc.

I would have thought by now...gas at $4, soaring cost of living, tigher living conditions, something would have to give. And it's like that all across the country.

I dont know, people are too american idol'ed out to care. Too entertained and tired. Maybe they think...if we just give them SUV's and plasma tv's, and that zero down interest, it'll subdue their senses.

Also, employment is still full.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:02 PM   #96
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Oh - I think they are angry! Yesterday's bill failure was a direct result of people being angry!

And today they called in angry because the bill didn't pass!

Audrey
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:21 PM   #97
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I think it's one part - they don't really understand what's going on
and one part - the majority of Americans are complicit in the greedy debt orgy that's been going on, and it's a little hard to be righteously outraged when you've been part of the problem. .....
I agree (to a degree) with your first part as to many Americans not fully understanding a lot of the high-finance involved in this problem -

But - I take issue with your second part as to the "majority" of Americans being "complicit"

I know I haven't been "complicit" - and I've know over the past 20 years many, many people in the various places I've lived who haven't been "complicit" - worked, paid their bills, bought appropriate houses for their incomes, dutifully put money away in their 401K's, etc

But perhaps that's because a lot of these people I've known live in "flyover country". They are the ones who've done the right things (mostly) and are getting hurt by this.

But we're bitterly clinging to our guns & religion & I expect will survive whatever comes
(well, maybe not the religion part in my case, but I don't begrudge anyone else their religion as long as it's fairly benign)
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:43 PM   #98
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I agree (to a degree) with your first part as to many Americans not fully understanding a lot of the high-finance involved in this problem -

But - I take issue with your second part as to the "majority" of Americans being "complicit"

I know I haven't been "complicit" - and I've know over the past 20 years many, many people in the various places I've lived who haven't been "complicit" - worked, paid their bills, bought appropriate houses for their incomes, dutifully put money away in their 401K's, etc

But perhaps that's because a lot of these people I've known live in "flyover country". They are the ones who've done the right things (mostly) and are getting hurt by this.

But we're bitterly clinging to our guns & religion & I expect will survive whatever comes
(well, maybe not the religion part in my case, but I don't begrudge anyone else their religion as long as it's fairly benign)
Well I don't have any statistics so my "majority" is obviously a bit speculative and based on the anecdotal evidence and stats I've seen. You do realize though that a majority is 51% or more though, right?

The fact that you or I know lots of people who haven't gotten caught in this madness doesn't mean that it's not a majority. But I'll grant you the point and let's just say it's "a lot."

And I also live in "flyover country" and know that there are plenty in these parts who've lived over their heads on debt. Relax, you're a little bit defensive.

The madness was all around.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:52 PM   #99
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Heard a statistic from a talking head on the news that 94% of residential mortgages in the US are current in their payments - that's not a majority.

Seems to me by bundling the mortgages of the "complicit" 6% together with the rest of us the financial industry has socialized the complicity.

(Note - not "defensive" - just strongly disagree)
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:00 PM   #100
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I think it's one part - they don't really understand what's going on and one part - the majority of Americans are complicit in the greedy debt orgy that's been going on, and it's a little hard to be righteously outraged when you've been part of the problem.
I also don't think it was "the majority," but even if it was, even if it was 95%--why would we want to decouple irresponsible behavior from the natural result of that behavior? Let the folks who had the party pay the bar tab. Yes, there will be innocent people hurt (e.g. those who work for companies which have not managed their accounts so as to do without short-term lending). This is what is known in technical terms as "bad luck." And there's plenty of it throughout life.

If we subsidize irresponsible behavior, we'll get more of it in the future. The bailout bill is too expensive, and it doesn't address the root cause of the problem (mortgages that don't reflect the true value of the underlying homes in the "natural state" where lenders charge real rates for their loans based on real risk of non-payment). The market is the only true fix to this problem, and the sooner we let things adjust, the sooner the pain will be over.
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