Why Pay off the mortgage?

It would appear he wants those of us with paid for houses to apologize and admit we are stupid and inferior.
I don't see it that way. I think he wanted to make sure that he understood who was making financial decisions (and why) vs who was making the emotional decisions.

Your use of the "S" and the "I" words appears more intended to provoke than to discuss.
 
I don't see it that way. I think he wanted to make sure that he understood who was making financial decisions (and why) vs who was making the emotional decisions.

Your use of the "S" and the "I" words appears more intended to provoke than to discuss.

I think it is just that the subject of paying off mortgages is very highly charged for some of us, and emotions are close to the surface. It is very difficult to pay off a house, and many of us have made the HUGE effort that it takes to do this. Others have not, and it is hard to understand that they are not just rationalizing the fact that they made a different choice.

We all need to keep an open mind when we discuss this, and to realize that there are logical, mathematical (as well as emotional) reasons for decisions to either pay off or not pay off a mortgage.

To me it seems that the equivalent of paying off a mortgage would be the most conservative of fixed income investments in an amount large enough to cover the mortgage P&I (plus level of insurance required by the mortgage company, if it is higher than what one might independently choose, plus any late fees, online bill pay fees, and any other annoying fees), minus the taxes on the income from that investment. Also, one could place a cost on one's time in dealing with all of this instead of simply paying it off.
 
Last edited:
The whole "pay off debt or invest" question, especially where a lower-interest, possibly deductible mortgage is concerned, is one people will never agree on. That's largely because it's a decision based as much on security and "comfort level" as strictly financial, IMO. We can't put a blanket, one-size-fits-all value on the peace of mind people feel in paying off a mortgage. If one looks strictly at financial outcomes and decides that long term they can do better investing a chunk of money at 8-9% instead of paying off a 5.5% loan, that makes sense. However, if someone is a Dave Ramsey-style debtophobe who is more interested in the "security" of being debt-free than of maximizing their wealth, paying off the mortgage makes sense to them.

It does little good to tell others what they should do because they likely have different motivations and perhaps different tolerances/aversion to debt.
 
It would appear he wants those of us with paid for houses to apologize and admit we are stupid and inferior.

I thought he was questioning the "celebration factor". And I agree with him. I'll not buy you a card or send you a "Happy you met your financial obligation to your mortgagor " gift just as I don't expect a "We're happy for you on your successfull transfer of $1,000 from your checking to your savings account" card. I will sell you either of those cards (PM me for your FIRE discount).

My first mortgage was paid off in 1993. I still own the property. I have over $400,000 in mortgages on other properties. It really doesn't make a difference to me which property is paid off and which one has a mortgage. I like my net worth based on the total figure. I'd actually like it even better if I had an extra $400K in mortgages and controlled an extra $2,000,000 in property. Go figure!

This is posted in the Fire and money forum and should be looked at from the financial perspective IMHO. Maybe the "warm fuzzy" posts should be moved to the health and retirement forum. "Since paying off my mortgage I have been experiencing regular BM's" Who's gonna argue with you?
 
I
It is very difficult to pay off a house, and many of us have made the HUGE effort that it takes to do this. Others have not, and it is hard to understand that they are not just rationalizing the fact that they made a different choice.

I'll avoid the emotional debate - I've commented on that enough. But, what confounds me in your statement is this:

Sure, it takes a HUGE effort to come up with the money to pay off the house. But that does not mean the money needs to go to that account (the house). That same money could be in an investment account. Same effort to put $100,000 towards your mortgage principal as it is to put into investments.

I'm not rationalizing anything. I have not even made the decision yet. I will look at it when I see what my rates are next year (currently fixed at 5%, that ends in Dec). So, I'm trying to get all the views to make sure I have not overlooked anything.

The 'safety' of the investment is something to think about. CFB has commented on this, and I finally sat down and ran some numbers to get a better handle on it. Though my mort is small enough, it won't make a big difference anyhow. I just kind of hate to see my investment account balance go down by the amount of my mortgage principal.

-ERD50
 
It would appear he wants those of us with paid for houses to apologize and admit we are stupid and inferior.

When the finger points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger.

You should understand that some of the folks involved in this debate have read fairly clear executive summaries of scientific documents and subsequently proclaimed that they said exactly the opposite of what the document actually said.

The problem here is some folks have made an emotional decision based on a simplistic perspective that tells them they'll make more money. By poking holes in that decision, you make them uncomfortable with their logic and their only reasonable reactions are to admit that they're wrong or to tell you that you've made an emotional decision.

If you have a ridiculously cheap rate, a reliable income stream to pay the debt, and/or you dont mind taking on a lot more risk to possibly gain a slightly higher return, and dont mind lower survivability in a long term down market...you oughta keep the debt.

I paid off my 6.25% mortgage 7 years ago with appreciated company stock that subsequently dropped 80% in value. Since that decision, the rates on fixed income have never exceeded the prevailing mortgage rate. My portfolio risk was nearly zero since I never had to sell shares to pay the bills.

Oh yeah, and it feels good too. Yet, my decision was based 110% on the characteristics of my total financial picture. Not on looking at the mortgage rate on one hand and the long term rate of return on equities on the other, forgetting to risk adjust, and deciding I could make more money. Thats a bush league mistake.

Nords' case is a perfect example of when keeping a mortgage makes sense. He regularly does the paperwork to refinance to the lowest available rate. He has a solid income that pays the bills. He's willing to take on significant equity risk in exchange for higher long term results. He doesnt hold a lot of cash or bonds paying below mortgage rates.

A high risk strategy, but if you've got the balls for it, a reasonable one.

Someone with 200k in debt who then structures a 50/50 or 60/40 port to reduce their volatility, then sets aside 5 years of cash to survive downturns and has nothing but their portfolio to rely on to make payments? Thats someone who has created a problem and then applied fourteen rolls of duct tape to it to solve the problems and taken on a lot of unnecessary risk.

I should also at this time point out (again) that in 2003 when I could get a 3.98% 5 year fixed/adjustable mortgage, I posed a question as to whether I should take it and invest the proceeds. 100% of the respondents here said they would not do it. Too risky. Cash was paying squat, bonds were getting killed by the rate drops, and stocks had been languishing for more than 2 years. Too risky.

So when times are good, folks are brave, everyone elses choices are emotional. Times are bad, people are cautious...even 3.98% isnt worth the risk.


Dang it! Perspective!
 
I had a diversification problem. It was quite deliberate. But that was how I retired at 39, at which time I immediately resolved the diversification problem.

Audrey

A little off the main topic here, but I suspect that your definition of 'diversification' would be quite different from most on this forum.

You said:

> 90% of my net worth was in company stock. Of course I was dependent on the company as well!

By selling a small amount of company stock to pay off my mortgage,


Wow, you have 90% of NW in company stock, you sell off a 'small amount', and now you are diversified? I couldn't sleep at night with all those eggs in one basket, mortgage or no mortgage!

And, it misses the point that you could have sold the stock, and either paid off the mortgage or not. The 'diversification' would have happened independent of the mortgage question. Right?

-ERD50
 
Wow, you have 90% of NW in company stock, you sell off a 'small amount', and now you are diversified? I couldn't sleep at night with all those eggs in one basket, mortgage or no mortgage!

And, it misses the point that you could have sold the stock, and either paid off the mortgage or not. The 'diversification' would have happened independent of the mortgage question. Right?

-ERD50
I don't think you understood my story. Yes, I was very concentrated way back then when I paid off the mortgage. I was taking a huge gamble on company stock and very loath to sell any of it, but decided at the time that I should at least pay off the mortgage so I didn't have to worry about the roof over my head in case disaster struck.

A couple of years later as I prepared to retire, I started selling company stock hand over fist to create my retirement portfolio, and that was 8 years ago. Now the stock is a very small % of my net worth.

Audrey
 
Last edited:
A couple of years later as I prepared to retire, I started selling company stock hand over fist to create my retirement portfolio, and that was 8 years ago. Now the stock is a very small % of my net worth.

OK, that does sound more in line with what most people would call 'diversified'. You just had me wondering there.

I was taking a huge gamble on company stock and very loath to sell any of it, but decided at the time that I should at least pay off the mortgage so I didn't have to worry about the roof over my head in case disaster struck.

And my counterpoint to that is - if you sold enough stock to pay off the mortgage and put it into an account, you could draw from that account to pay the monthly mortgage bill if disaster struck.

It's just not an all-or-nothing thing. It's not really the mortgage pay off that could 'save' you, but alternately, the liquid investments. Either one can do that job. In some ways, the liquidity might be better - you can decide to spend it as needed. Other factors would determine which is best.

I think CFB mentioned that liquidity is pretty easy to get anyway through a heloc. I don't know what you need to do to qualify for one, never did it. Would you need to do it before disaster struck? But that could very well solve the liquidity problem either way, I don't know.

-ERD50
 
My mortgage rate was just over 7% at that time. I don't recall a low-risk investment at the time that gave after-tax results with that kind of return.

And this was so much SIMPLER.

Audrey
 
The way I think about it

You have a spending portfolio you draw 4% on, and a mortgage portfolio the size of the mortgage debt that you draw the mortgage rate on, say 6%. A fixed mortgage has a limited term and will decrease with inflation allowing a somewhat higher safe withdrawal rate. Decide the survivability rate you will accept on your mortgage portfolio. This decision can be influenced by both reason and emotion. That will determine the acceptable mortgage rate and whether you should keep it or pay it off. I would also recommend applying current conditions such as bond rates and stock returns to it to estimate whether now is a good time or not rather than using historical data alone and whether you would invest more conservatively because of it leading to lower anticipated returns.

The hard question is why one would apply a different survivability rate to your mortgage portfolio than you would apply to you spending portfolio, if you do so.
 
My mortgage rate was just over 7% at that time. I don't recall a low-risk investment at the time that gave after-tax results with that kind of return.

And this was so much SIMPLER.

Audrey

Those are good reasons. Thanks - ERD50
 
You have a spending portfolio you draw 4% on, and a mortgage portfolio the size of the mortgage debt that you draw the mortgage rate on, say 6%. A fixed mortgage has a limited term and will decrease with inflation allowing a somewhat higher safe withdrawal rate.

Paying down the principal on a 6% mortgage is financially no different than putting that money into a sure-thing 6% investment for the remaining duration of the loan. If you don't itemize, that's like a sure-thing tax free 6% return. If someone could point me to a tax-free, ultra-safe 6% investment, I'd love to hear about it.
 
I just kind of hate to see my investment account balance go down by the amount of my mortgage principal.

-ERD50

This sounds like emotion driven decision making to me. You "hate" to see your investment account balance go down by the amount of your mortgage principal:confused:??

What do the numbers say? Why are you letting feelings like this influence your decision? "I love the feeling of having no mortgage" "I hate to see my investment account balance go down by the amount of my mortgage principal." Same thing.........

;)
 
Paying down the principal on a 6% mortgage is financially no different than putting that money into a sure-thing 6% investment for the remaining duration of the loan. If you don't itemize, that's like a sure-thing tax free 6% return. If someone could point me to a tax-free, ultra-safe 6% investment, I'd love to hear about it.

OK. Give me a little time.
 
Paying off my mortgage actually reduced my taxes. By itemizing deductions (and there were plenty) I managed to eke out a decent gain against the standard deduction and if I had a large non-discretionary income source (like a j-o-b) that'd be good. By eliminating the mortgage, the associated withdrawals taxed at 15%+, and reducing my tax profile I paid zero taxes for 3 years and almost nothing the past two. My capital gains rate also fell from 15% to 5%.
 
This sounds like emotional driven decision making to me. You "hate" to see your investment account balance go down by the amount of your mortgage principal:confused:??

What do the numbers say? Why are you letting feelings like this influence your decision?

;)

Yes, I intentionally put that in there as a counter to show that there are two sides to the 'emotional' component also - just a different POV.

In the end, I WON'T let that drive my decision, just the numbers. One thing I do need to check, it might not be significant, but if I withdraw to pay off the mortgage, it might take the account below a level to get the better commissions and service from my broker. That's probably extremely small potatoes, though.

Since my mortgage is a direct withdraw from my account, I wouldn't even get the satisfaction of simplifying my life with one less payment to make!

-ERD50
 
ERD50.......

When you have a moment, open a delicious cold one, sit back and contemplate all the areas in financial matters where emotions frequently come into play..........

There are folks who:

can't live with high levels of volatility in their portfolios

can't keep from tinkering with their portfolios

stay with jobs they hate because they can't tolerate the risk of leaving

keep wanting to "double down" when they experience a loss

feel comforted by insurance/annuity salespersons and their pitches

need a large gambling component (penny stocks, etc) in their portfolios

can't stop spending

can't stop saving

and on and on and on.......

And, yep, some folks get off emotionally on eliminating indebtedness, even if the financial impact of doing so is inconsequential. It just feels good.

Don't worry about it. Compared to areas in one's financial life where emotions can really, really screw things up, feeling good about paying off the mortgage isn't a big hitter! ;)
 
ERD50.......

When you have a moment, open a delicious cold one, sit back and contemplate all the areas in financial matters where emotions frequently come into play..........

Well, if you insist.... pop-fizzz-glug,glug,glug-fizzzz.....sip-sip-sip....mmmm, burp - mmmm - good idea!

Don't worry about it. Compared to areas in one's financial life where emotions can really, really screw things up, feeling good about paying off the mortgage isn't a big hitter! ;)
Of course you are correct.

In all those cases, I still think it is best to recognize it for what it is. Someone may still want to follow the emotional draw over the numbers, fine.

I guess another reason, in the back of mind, for going on about this is - there are probably quite a few 'lurkers' out there. I have been reading forums long before I ever posted. When I see all these posts congratulating people on moving money to pay off their mortgage, it makes it sound like it was some great financial move.

So, are lurkers going to think - 'wow, this is the key to FIRE, pay off that mortgage! Look how excited these FIREd people get about this!'? When, in reality it probably has little to do with whether you get to FIRE-land or not. So those pre-FIRE'd people should probably be putting their energy elsewhere (as should I!). ;)

I guess there is just something in my nature that drives me to want to try to expose things for what they are. At that point, people will do what they will do. I just feel better if they at least got the whole story.

-ERD50
 
Paying off my mortgage actually reduced my taxes. By itemizing deductions (and there were plenty) I managed to eke out a decent gain against the standard deduction and if I had a large non-discretionary income source (like a j-o-b) that'd be good. By eliminating the mortgage, the associated withdrawals taxed at 15%+, and reducing my tax profile I paid zero taxes for 3 years and almost nothing the past two. My capital gains rate also fell from 15% to 5%.

Interesting point. It really goes to show that the financial part of the decision is very specific to the individual situation.

My crystal ball is telling me that when I actually get my rate increase, the difference between pay off or no pay off isn't going to be worth the paper/ink it takes to print the spreadsheet. Doing nothing is probably going to be my fall back - it's easiest.

But, we will see.

-ERD50
 
SWRs

'No free lunch and no increased safe withdrawal rate.'

Yes, it is increased over the rate to support constant real withdrawals which is what 4% provides, and it is increased due to the limited term of the mortgage assuming it is fixed and limited, ie, not variable or interest only. Mortgage payments do not increase in real terms in this case, while withdrawals to support spending do.

Differences in survival rate can change the acceptable rate significantly.

In my case, rates were high, and taxes would also have been higher if I did not pay it off.
 
Yes, it is increased over the rate to support constant real withdrawals which is what 4% provides, and it is increased due to the limited term of the mortgage assuming it is fixed and limited, ie, not variable or interest only. Mortgage payments do not increase in real terms in this case, while withdrawals to support spending do.
Offset by the fact that having a mortgage reduces your ability to fund your retirement in the future, AND if you retire while you still have a mortgage, it requires you to withdraw a larger percentage of your portfolio to live from.

The only real financial difference comes if you can invest the money that would otherwise go to paying down the mortgage, on an after-tax basis, at a better rate of return than the mortgage itself. For many people investing semi-aggressively on a long-term basis that's likely, but again, we all value the peace of mind of being debt-free a little differently.
 
When I see all these posts congratulating people on moving money to pay off their mortgage, it makes it sound like it was some great financial move.
So, are lurkers going to think - 'wow, this is the key to FIRE, pay off that mortgage! Look how excited these FIREd people get about this!'? When, in reality it probably has little to do with whether you get to FIRE-land or not. So those pre-FIRE'd people should probably be putting their energy elsewhere (as should I!). ;)
I guess there is just something in my nature that drives me to want to try to expose things for what they are. At that point, people will do what they will do. I just feel better if they at least got the whole story.
That's one of the reasons for the FAQ archive. (Well, that and getting tired of having to keep looking up the same threads every month or two.) If the new lurkers aren't reading the "Best of" and the FAQs then there's not much else we can do to help.

"Interesting" thought... we wouldn't be having this conversation if interest rates hadn't dipped to a 40-year low a few years back. Maybe this really was a twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
 
'No free lunch and no increased safe withdrawal rate.'

Yes, it is increased over the rate to support constant real withdrawals which is what 4% provides, and it is increased due to the limited term of the mortgage assuming it is fixed and limited, ie, not variable or interest only. Mortgage payments do not increase in real terms in this case, while withdrawals to support spending do.

Differences in survival rate can change the acceptable rate significantly.

Sigh. This is simple math. If inflation is 5% per year, your mortgage payment becomes 5% cheaper due to the devaluation of the cash the bank has used to fund your loan. And your portfolio loses 5% of its real value at the very same time, making the inflation argument a neutral option. This is not "free money" that is appearing. The 4% SWR assumes an adjustment with inflation to maintain the 4% over time, but that calculation is factored in and requires that a higher rate of return and its associated investment risk are incorporated. You dont get to benefit from both, but rather benefit from one while suffering equally by the other.

As far as the rest, i'm gonna call bullshit. Anyone who claims to operate "solely by the numbers" can check back in again in the 7th year of a bear market and tell me how cool your cucumber is.:rolleyes:
 
Back
Top Bottom