Why the hand-wringing over tax efficiency?

Austin704

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Tax (in)efficiency in taxable accounts

Hoping the smart people here can enlighten me. I read a lot about how one should avoid investing in tax inefficient investments outside of a tax-advantaged account like a 401k.

The logic goes something like this: investments that generate lots of dividends raise one’s taxable income, as these dividends are taxed as ordinary income at the marginal tax rate. For taxable accounts, one should use CDs, tax-free municipal bonds, short-term bonds (lower yields), or stock mutual funds to minimize dividends and avoid taxes.

But what if the higher yielding taxable investment is actually making more money after taxes than these other accounts? Here’s an example: I have $50k in a taxable high yield bond fund that generates a nominal 6% return. That’s an after-tax return of more than 4.5% in the 22% tax bracket. Yes, bond fund prices fluctuate and this affects real return but not anything like the stock market, and as yields and price move inversely, they sort of cancel each other’s effects. This fund pretty much stays steady every year and generates a lot of income. Yes, I pay taxes but after taxes I’m still making money.

On the other hand, my TIPS fund and short-term bond fund really struggle to hand in much of a return. In fact, over the last year the TIPS has lost money. But boy are they tax efficient—if you don’t make any money you aren’t taxed! Sooo....

Why would I invest in CDs (barely keeping up with inflation—maybe), tax-advantaged bonds (weak returns) or expose myself to risks in the stock market (2018 anyone?) to avoid taxes on an investment that actually pays a good return?

Of note, I live in Texas, where we have no state income tax.
 
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Hoping the smart people here can enlighten me. I read a lot about how one should avoid investing in tax inefficient investments outside of a tax-advantaged account like a 401k.

The logic goes something like this: investments that generate lots of dividends raise one’s taxable income, as these dividends are taxed as ordinary income at the marginal tax rate. For taxable accounts, one should use CDs, tax-free municipal bonds, short-term bonds (lower yields), or stock mutual funds to minimize dividends and avoid taxes.

But what if the higher yielding taxable investment is actually making more money after taxes than these other accounts? Here’s an example: I have $50k in a taxable high yield bond fund that generates a nominal 6% return. That’s an after-tax return of more than 4.5% in the 22% tax bracket. Yes, bond fund prices fluctuate and this affects real return but not anything like the stock market, and as yields and price move inversely, they sort of cancel each other’s effects. This fund pretty much stays steady every year and generates a lot of income. Yes, I pay taxes but after taxes I’m still making money.

On the other hand, my TIPS fund and short-term bond fund really struggle to hand in much of a return. In fact, over the last year the TIPS has lost money. But boy are they tax efficient—if you don’t make any money you aren’t taxed! Sooo....

Why would I invest in CDs (barely keeping up with inflation—maybe), tax-advantaged bonds (weak returns) or expose myself to risks in the stock market (2018 anyone?) to avoid taxes on an investment that actually pays a good return?

Of note, I live in Texas, where we have no state income tax.

I guess I missed the string that discussed having taxable accounts in fixed income investments.
 
I think you kind of have it backwards. Decide on your AA--stock/bond/cash mix. Once you have that decided, allocate it in the most tax efficient manner, which usually starts with bonds in tax deferred.

Nobody is (or should be) saying you can't have bonds in taxable, but it usually should only be if you don't have any more room for them in tax deferred.

When in taxable, chose tax exempt bonds only if your tax rate makes them more attractive than taxable.
 
I guess I missed the string that discussed having taxable accounts in fixed income investments.

Doesn't need to be any particular thread. Tax hand wringing ... or tax efficiency whatever you want to call it, is one of the sine qua nons of this entire board
 
That makes sense. Most of the discussions I’ve read center around people who either have maxed out or can’t contribute to tax-deferred accounts and they want to invest in a taxable account.
 
I guess I missed the string that discussed having taxable accounts in fixed income investments.



It is discussed quite a bit over at Bogleheads. The context is people who don’t have access to or are maxed out on tax-advantaged accounts but still have $$ to invest. There are all sorts of cautions about tax-inefficient investments in taxable accounts.
 
I am a counterexample to this. Sure I might be able to squeak a few more $ out if I followed the strategy -- but --- I couldn't invest in Balanced Funds then.

I really like the concept of Balanced Funds at this point in my life. In the past I use to have a lot of anxiety in reacting to market performance. Now I rest assured that my Balanced Funds are automatically buying low and selling high so I don't need to worry about any tactical AA changes.

I viewed my emotional reaction to market behavior as a far larger potential cost then the tax savings by optimizing where my different asset types are invested.

Not wrong -- just different.

-gauss
 
Tax efficiency is a cornerstone of investing strategy. Calling it hand wringing is a bit extreme.



Quite so. I apologize for the word choice. My point is some investors appear to get so fixated on tax efficiency that the bigger picture of actual return seems to be missed. I thought I might be misunderstanding something.
 
I am a counterexample to this. Sure I might be able to squeak a few more $ out if I followed the strategy -- but --- I couldn't invest in Balanced Funds then.

I really like the concept of Balanced Funds at this point in my life. In the past I use to have a lot of anxiety in reacting to market performance. Now I rest assured that my Balanced Funds are automatically buying low and selling high so I don't need to worry about any tactical AA changes.

I viewed my emotional reaction to market behavior as a far larger potential cost then the tax savings by optimizing where my different asset types are invested.

Not wrong -- just different.

-gauss



Interesting perspective. Thanks!
 
So why not put those high yielding bonds in a tax-deferred account and not pay the taxes?

The main reason to have good locations (tax-wise) when you have a choice is to keep more of your money. If you don't care about mo' money, then by all means pay mo' taxes.

And if you say, "Well, I want to spend the dividends I get and don't want to withdraw from my tax-deferred retirement accounts!" That can be accomplished anyways with your high-yield bonds in tax-deferred and not in your taxable account.
 
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There are a few issues that cross paths and you might be confusing them...


First, there is the question of what to invest in... bonds or stocks... and then what kind of bonds and what kind of stocks... this is an AA question.. your decision to invest in HY bonds over a CD is an AA issue, not a tax efficiency one...



So, now that you have decided to invest in HY, the next question is where best to hold these.... most people would say to hold them in a tIRA or even ROTH (I do not like the ROTH, might explain later).... because the income is not taxed in the current year and you might have an option to reduce taxes in the future...


This would mean that your stocks are held in the taxable account where divis and cap gain might be taxed at 0%... 0% tax is much better than 22% tax....


Another part of the story is to not buy something that does not make sense... IOW, why buy an annuity inside an IRA? It is a tax deferred investment in a tax deferred account... really stupid...


Also, buying foreign stocks in a IRA does not make sense... you lose the FTC if there is any...


So, I believe you are confused what tax efficiency really means....




As to the investment in the ROTH.... I want to have my risky investments there that have potential to really explode in value... if they do so I will never have to pay taxes on that big gain.... if it were in a tIRA or a taxable account then I would have to pay taxes on ordinary income for the IRA and potentially some major taxes on the taxable account... to me sheltering whatever kind of income I have from taxes is a really good thing...
 
So why not put those high yielding bonds in a tax-deferred account and not pay the taxes?

The main reason to have good locations (tax-wise) when you have a choice is to keep more of your money. If you don't care about mo' money, then by all means pay mo' taxes.

And if you say, "Well, I want to spend the dividends I get and don't want to withdraw from my tax-deferred retirement accounts!" That can be accomplished anyways with your high-yield bonds in tax-deferred and not in your taxable account.



Thanks LOL! I’m retiring this year and will not have access to tax-favored accounts (no W2 income to defer) but I don’t want to give up the taxable high-yield bond fund unless there is good reason to do so. I can’t see dumping the HY bond and chasing rates on CDs or investing in muni bonds to avoid taxes when, even after taxes, I’m making more money on the HY bond.
 
There are a few issues that cross paths and you might be confusing them...


First, there is the question of what to invest in... bonds or stocks... and then what kind of bonds and what kind of stocks... this is an AA question.. your decision to invest in HY bonds over a CD is an AA issue, not a tax efficiency one...



So, now that you have decided to invest in HY, the next question is where best to hold these.... most people would say to hold them in a tIRA or even ROTH (I do not like the ROTH, might explain later).... because the income is not taxed in the current year and you might have an option to reduce taxes in the future...


This would mean that your stocks are held in the taxable account where divis and cap gain might be taxed at 0%... 0% tax is much better than 22% tax....


Another part of the story is to not buy something that does not make sense... IOW, why buy an annuity inside an IRA? It is a tax deferred investment in a tax deferred account... really stupid...


Also, buying foreign stocks in a IRA does not make sense... you lose the FTC if there is any...


So, I believe you are confused what tax efficiency really means....




As to the investment in the ROTH.... I want to have my risky investments there that have potential to really explode in value... if they do so I will never have to pay taxes on that big gain.... if it were in a tIRA or a taxable account then I would have to pay taxes on ordinary income for the IRA and potentially some major taxes on the taxable account... to me sheltering whatever kind of income I have from taxes is a really good thing...



I appreciate the perspective. I left some details out of my post, such as the fact that I’m holding the HY bond as part of a larger non-retirement account meant to give me liquidity for big purchases such as a new (used) car. I agree that ideally this bond would be better in a tax-deferred account, with dividends reinvested; but because I may need access to the funds before age 59.5 I maintain this account.
 
Thanks LOL! I’m retiring this year and will not have access to tax-favored accounts (no W2 income to defer) ....
I am going to say that you might not have thought this through.

If I put HY in tax-deferred, then I can still use the dividends that it pays without withdrawing from tax-deferred. Here's how I would do that:

1. HY in tax-deferred. Tax-efficient stock fund in taxable.

2. HY pays dividend in tax-deferred.

3. Sell a few shares of tax-efficient stock fund in taxable in same amount as that dividend. Shares have been held long-term, so return of capital is tax-free and realized capital gains may be tax-free. Spend the money.

4. At same time as 3 above, use the dividend paid by HY to re-buy the stock fund shares in tax-deferred. You end up with the same total number of shares as before, but amounts in each account have changed slightly.

5. 1-4 above yield much less tax or no tax compared to what you are doing now. It's OK with me that you do what you do, but I thought you might like to pay less taxes for the exact same result.
 
When one thinks of tax efficiency one has to consider how they get spending money. So it can make sense to have high yield bonds in a taxable account. It may be cheaper than pulling $ from an TIRA.

I did a roth conversion up to the top of the 24% bracket this year. Good long term tax move? maybe. It depends on how things unfold. Others manage income to get ACA subsidies. Good tax move? depends on how other things unfold.

It is easier to see what gave you a near term gain or loss. It is more difficult to see what a short term loss (no subsidy this year or doing a roth conversion) will change what happens in 10 or 20 years down the road.

Try to understand where you are getting hit with a tax. Then decide if that is better than other choices.

These are rules of thumb. You know if you have all your $ in TIRA's, they you do need to pull all your spending from your TIRA. Not tax efficient, but you don't have a choice. If you are 50/50 TIRA/Taxable, you have more choices. Work with what you have. Rules of thumb rarely know your specific situation.
 
I am going to say that you might not have thought this through.

If I put HY in tax-deferred, then I can still use the dividends that it pays without withdrawing from tax-deferred. Here's how I would do that:

1. HY in tax-deferred. Tax-efficient stock fund in taxable.

2. HY pays dividend in tax-deferred.

3. Sell a few shares of tax-efficient stock fund in taxable in same amount as that dividend. Shares have been held long-term, so return of capital is tax-free and realized capital gains may be tax-free. Spend the money.

4. At same time as 3 above, use the dividend paid by HY to re-buy the stock fund shares in tax-deferred. You end up with the same total number of shares as before, but amounts in each account have changed slightly.

5. 1-4 above yield much less tax or no tax compared to what you are doing now. It's OK with me that you do what you do, but I thought you might like to pay less taxes for the exact same result.
Good summary. It takes just a bit more thought and work, but nowhere to the point of hand-wringing (IMO). I'd say you save more and work less than what it takes to get one of those credit card bonus deals, or cut coupons, or any other number of bonus or cost-cutting ideas. It's free money, by saving taxes, with just that little bit of work.
 
But wait! THERE'S MORE!

Some people object to what I wrote with:

"But what if I have to sell my stock fund when stocks are down! I don't want to sell low! I don't want to sell at a loss!"

They are not thinking straight. If they sell LOW, then in tax-advantaged, they buy LOW! So there is no change in their position. Furthermore, selling at a LOSS in taxable has tax benefits because one gets to deduct realized capital losses from income. (Yes, one has to avoid a wash sale created by a purchase in an IRA, but that is absolutely trivial to do.)

OK, everyone can get back to their hand wringing now.
 
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But wait! THERE'S MORE!

Some people object to what I wrote with:

"But what if I have to sell my stock fund when stocks are down! I don't want to sell low! I don't want to sell at a loss!"

They are not thinking straight. If they sell LOW, then in tax-advantaged, they buy LOW! So there is no change in their position. Furthermore, selling at a LOSS in taxable has tax benefits because one gets to deduct realized capital losses from income. (Yes, one has to avoid a wash sale created by a purchase in an IRA, but that is absolutely trivial to do.)

OK, everyone can get back to their hand wringing now.

So are your comments above really just related to pseudo type wash sales vs. one always hears the mantra of having X years of bonds/cash to use in a downturn instead of selling stocks?
 
So are your comments above really just related to pseudo type wash sales vs. one always hears the mantra of having X years of bonds/cash to use in a downturn instead of selling stocks?
I think his comments are related to some people who get "stuck" on the notion of not having cash in the taxable account but keeping cash in a tax deferred account. Those people can't visualize how you can access spending money if the cash is in the tax deferred account other than a withdrawal from the tax deferred account and the process LOL! describes elegantly solves that problem. Also, it works equally well where one is rebalancing regularly or using a bucket strategy and using money in the the cash/fixed income bucket.
 
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For me, paying attn to taxable income avoids stepping into a 10% higher tax bracket...
"a penny saved is a penny earned", so thats a 10% return on those funds. Add in some other income level cliffs and my actual return is closer to 20%.

Compared to 3% investment return (stable value fund)... its not "hand wringing" its maximizing the return.
"Its not what you earn, its what you keep".
 
So are your comments above really just related to pseudo type wash sales vs. one always hears the mantra of having X years of bonds/cash to use in a downturn instead of selling stocks?

If one does it the way I read it, it sounds exactly like a wash sale into a tax deferred account. The loss is lost.

The concept is good, just don't buy something that is enough different to avoid the wash sale.

LOL!'s approach would be better in my situation if an RIRA was used instead of a TIRA. I'm more concerned with the tax torpedo of IRAs. So the metrics used are different. I'm not as concerned about minimizing taxes just this year. I actually pay taxes this year so I (hopefully) pay less in the future.

I do agree that tax planning is good. It is usually really good not to do wash sales into IRAs or 401ks.
 
I try to use tax efficient strategies but I don't worry about the last nickle. Some folks get real anal about taxes and invest in stuff that in the end pays less than what they could have gotten in taxable (but hey, they didn't have to pay any taxes):blush:
 
...
The logic goes something like this: investments that generate lots of dividends raise one’s taxable income, as these dividends are taxed as ordinary income at the marginal tax rate. For taxable accounts, one should use CDs, tax-free municipal bonds, short-term bonds (lower yields), or stock mutual funds to minimize dividends and avoid taxes.

....

This is completely backwards.

Dividends are either tax free or taxed at 15%

For example, a married couple with no other income can earn $96,000 in dividends and pay 0% fed taxes.

Putting your CD's & bonds in taxable accounts means they get taxed at your marginal rate which is higher than what dividends get taxed at.
 
This is completely backwards.

Dividends are either tax free or taxed at 15%

For example, a married couple with no other income can earn $96,000 in dividends and pay 0% fed taxes.

Putting your CD's & bonds in taxable accounts means they get taxed at your marginal rate which is higher than what dividends get taxed at.

you talk about qualified dividends. Income dividends or stock dividends that did not meet the holding period would not fit that treatment.
 
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