Will An Economic Stimulus Package Work?

[Arc]

Originally Posted by Arc

More wealth redistribution anyone? I agree with Unclehoney - let the market forces work!

Note: Comment biased by expectation that I would not be one of the lucky check recipients.

I've read Retire Soon's post and have had a change of heart. I can't think of anything better the government can do in this time of crisis than write a check to every American Citizen - and illegal immigrant. The logic is so obvious, I'm embarrassed for making the earlier post.
What are the chances of getting this done before the Superbowl ? - I too am leaning towards a big screen.

[utrecht]

Isnt the last tax rebate back in 2001 one of the main reasons that recession was so short?

[Retire Soon]

Originally Posted by Arc

I've read Retire Soon's post and have had a change of heart. I can't think of anything better the government can do in this time of crisis than write a check to every American Citizen - and illegal immigrant. The logic is so obvious, I'm embarrassed for making the earlier post.
What are the chances of getting this done before the Superbowl ? - I too am leaning towards a big screen.

Do illegal immigrants file federal income tax returns?

[growing_older]

News reports I saw indicated fastest possible timeline has political agreement by sometime in March and check being sent sometime in June. But any delays could push the delivery of the "stimulus" back to Oct or Nov.

How can this be useful if it won't deliver any stimulus for at least 6 months and maybe more. By then the economy could be in a very different situation.

[jazz4cash]

Originally Posted by growing_older

News reports I saw indicated fastest possible timeline has political agreement by sometime in March and check being sent sometime in June. But any delays could push the delivery of the "stimulus" back to Oct or Nov.

How can this be useful if it won't deliver any stimulus for at least 6 months and maybe more. By then the economy could be in a very different situation.

wow....I agree if it takes that long it wont help other than the psychological effect (which has been negative, so far).

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Retire Soon

Do illegal immigrants file federal income tax returns?

Most certainly they do, well many of them do. That is one of the intriguing things. They get a valid tax id, get W-2's and file income taxes each year, but get no credit for SS. One of the proposed law changes was to allow illegal immigrants who finally get legal status to pay a fee of about $5K to allow them to have their back SS payments credited.

We know a couple from Uraguay who have here about 9 years. She works in a child care center (she was a primary school teacher in Uraguay) and he works 2 jobs at restaurants (he did work in the Commerce department in Uraguay). They have a son who is a senior at High School and still own their home back in Uraguay. I think that if you are employed and file taxes every year the government turns a blind, and unlike citizens they pocket both the employer and employee SS contributions.

Very strange, but true

[Retire Soon]

Originally Posted by Alan

Most certainly they do, well many of them do. That is one of the intriguing things. They get a valid tax id, get W-2's and file income taxes each year, but get no credit for SS. One of the proposed law changes was to allow illegal immigrants who finally get legal status to pay a fee of about $5K to allow them to have their back SS payments credited.
We know a couple from Uraguay who have here about 9 years. She works in a child care center (she was a primary school teacher in Uraguay) and he works 2 jobs at restaurants (he did work in the Commerce department in Uraguay). They have a son who is a senior at High School and still own their home back in Uraguay. I think that if you are employed and file taxes every year the government turns a blind, and unlike citizens they pocket both the employer and employee SS contributions.

Very strange, but true

I found this bit of information very interesting. Thanks for bringing me up to date. I had no idea that this was going on.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Retire Soon

I found this bit of information very interesting. Thanks for bringing me up to date. I had no idea that this was going on.

Try reading these links

Illegal immigrants and Social Security | The San Diego Union-Tribune

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...migration.html

We are talking billions of $ that will be paid in by illegals and never paid back to them. (I forgot about medicaid - same thing applies)

[Rustic23]

Originally Posted by Alan

Most certainly they do, well many of them do.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but is that an opinion or have you seen some stats that show 'many do'. My feeling here in Texas is that those that work with forged documents where a business is taking out taxes, is that the taxes are forwarded by the employer but they do not file a tax return. Also, there seems to be 'many' that are day workers and paid cash. Just an observance on my part, I have not seen any stats. So I was wondering if you had a reference.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Rustic23

I don't want to hijack this thread, but is that an opinion or have you seen some stats that show 'many do'. My feeling here in Texas is that those that work with forged documents where a business is taking out taxes, is that the taxes are forwarded by the employer but they do not file a tax return. Also, there seems to be 'many' that are day workers and paid cash. Just an observance on my part, I have not seen any stats. So I was wondering if you had a reference.

Apart from my personal, non-statistical personal aquaintances in Texas (I only moved to Louisiana 2 weeks ago) I also heard a radio news story on it a year or back. It was a result of the immigration act of 1986 putting the emphasis on the employer to check for valid status. This meant they had to accept SS cards and put illegals on the payroll. They can then show that they were not breaking the law which only requires a SS card, not passport with visa, or US passport or green card. SS cards are easy to forge.

Taken from the links above:


Here's the drill: People enter the country illegally, promptly procure bogus Social Security cards from the black market, and use them to get jobs. Eventually they get paid, and those earnings generate W-2s that go to the Social Security Administration, which tucks them away in something called the "earnings suspense file." (The government does try to notify some of the larger employers that Social Security cards they've accepted appear to be phony, but that's about the extent of its efforts to figure out where all this money is coming from.) According to the best estimates of the Social Security Administration, the fund has kept track over the last 20 years of more than $300 billion in total earnings – the vast majority of them attributable to illegal immigrants.
Three-hundred billion dollars! You have to admit that's pretty impressive in a country where no one will admit to actually hiring illegal immigrants in the first place. But those are just the figures in a ledger. The hard currency is the Social Security taxes that illegal immigrants and their employers pay on those earnings. That rings in at about $7 billion a year. Which is why you don't hear the Social Security Administration raising a fuss over illegal immigration. And to the degree that this arm of the U.S. government has friends in Congress, it could explain why you don't see many pieces of legislation calling for mass deportations of illegal immigrants. I mean, why kill the golden goose?

[jazz4cash]

I have suspected this SS contribution scenario was a significant piece of the illegal immigration puzzle for quite awhile, but I never knew for sure. Thanks for the links.

[Rustic23]

I guess the point I keyed on was
Do illegal immigrants file federal income tax returns?

I was thinking from the point of view of the illegal immigrant filing a tax return not the payment of SS. From what I have seen most illegals avoid government agencies.

As I said not attempt to hijack thread, and I have no qualms with the fact that illegals pay SS and Income Tax as it is withheld and most likely more than what they owe. To discuss it further we should start a thread.

[2B]

One thing you're missing about the illegal immigrant and phony social security card is that employers are supposed to access an on line database that will tell them if the name and number match. If they don't verify the number then they are liable for employing someone without the right to work in the US. The courts are still battling it out but this verification step is making it harder for illegals to hold "real" jobs.

The primary employment of illegals from my experience is cash jobs without any withholdings.

[retire@40]

The more I think about this $800-a-person rebate, the more I get upset that they originally took $800 more from me than they needed.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by 2B

One thing you're missing about the illegal immigrant and phony social security card is that employers are supposed to access an on line database that will tell them if the name and number match. If they don't verify the number then they are liable for employing someone without the right to work in the US. The courts are still battling it out but this verification step is making it harder for illegals to hold "real" jobs.

The primary employment of illegals from my experience is cash jobs without any withholdings.

I think this database is very recent and there is no legal requirement for employers to use it (it is certainly not enforced).

Arizona has passed state legislation that it will enforce this, and it is being challenged in court as the database they are using is a federal database. Meanwhile it is working, many illegals are leaving the state, either back to Mexico or to other states.

Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona - CNN.com

In context to this thread, I agree that any rebates are probably not going to make it to this segment of tax payers.

[Independent]

Originally Posted by Retire Soon

The "unofficial White House plan" is to suspend the 10% tax code rate, which is the bottom rate that everyone with taxable income actually pays. The intention of the plan is to give a rebate to anyone who pays income taxes, which would include ER's like many of us. It's interesting to note that 57 million Americans pay no federal income taxes at all, and would receive no benefit under the administration's proposal. This group of people includes 30 million low wage earners and the rest mostly retirees. Democrats are pushing to extend the White House plan by including everyone who filed an income tax return, whether or not they actually paid taxes. The bottom line is that President Bush would like to include us ER's who pay income taxes receive the $800/$1600 tax rebate and not just w*rking foks.

Bush, Democrats Spar on Stimulus - WSJ.com

This is why it will take a while to pass something. The democrats would also pick up people who don't (necessarily) file income taxes by increasing the value of "food stamps", which are really more like debit cards today. They would also extend unemployment benefits. Bush will call both of these ideas "increased spending" and say that he is only interested in "tax cuts".

[Helena]

If this one is similar to the last tax rebate,
not everyone will get it and the amounts
rebated to individual taxpayers will differ.

Don't spend the money until you read the
small print !!

[Meadbh]

Originally Posted by Alan

Most certainly they do, well many of them do. That is one of the intriguing things. They get a valid tax id, get W-2's and file income taxes each year, but get no credit for SS. One of the proposed law changes was to allow illegal immigrants who finally get legal status to pay a fee of about $5K to allow them to have their back SS payments credited.

We know a couple from Uraguay who have here about 9 years. She works in a child care center (she was a primary school teacher in Uraguay) and he works 2 jobs at restaurants (he did work in the Commerce department in Uraguay). They have a son who is a senior at High School and still own their home back in Uraguay. I think that if you are employed and file taxes every year the government turns a blind, and unlike citizens they pocket both the employer and employee SS contributions.

Very strange, but true

That is truly amazing. Taxation without representation. It just shows the extent of government expediency. Anyone with a tax return is traceable and therefore deportable. But that would reduce the pool of cheap labour so the US government turns a blind eye. One wonders what will happen in a recession when legal US residents want a job, any job. These people are so vulnerable.

[Oldbabe]

Originally Posted by retire@40

The more I think about this $800-a-person rebate, the more I get upset that they originally took $800 more from me than they needed.

Have you taken a look at the Federal debt lately? This "rebate" is nothing more than another loan taken out against your children's future.