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Old 01-13-2015, 03:02 PM   #41
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Agreed. Even if you don't care about bridges, or are retiring, nastiness is not classy and you just look like a sore loser even if THEY are the real losers. Just be above the @$$hats.

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I would counsel against ever writing a nasty letter of resignation...unless you are retiring.


Why burn bridges? You never know when you will meet someone or need their assistance. It solves nothing and can only harm you in the future.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:30 PM   #42
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Never sign the PIP according to this article:
https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com...pip-heres-why/
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:49 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by robnplunder View Post
One caution ....

Despite what others may lead you to believe, in employee vs management situation, employee rarely wins if at all. Something short of sexual and other harassment with witness who will back you up, it's not worth going all out against the management. Only dumb manager will make big enough mistake to shoot himself in the foot. Your best bet is to move on.
+1

It is important to remember that HR is not on your side. They represent the company, are employed by the company, and will do what it takes to protect the company. Any allegations against the company without legal enforcing evidence will be dismissed along with the one making them.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:06 PM   #44
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Never sign the PIP according to this article:
https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com...pip-heres-why/
I'm sure the author knows much more than I do. However at Megacorp we were instructioned to write that employee refused to sign. PIPs had standard verbage to follow all your management's requests. HR reviewed the paperwork and you were gone.

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Old 01-13-2015, 04:46 PM   #45
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Never sign the PIP according to this article:
https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com...pip-heres-why/
I haven't Googled the author, Michael Church, yet. But I think this article is spot-on.

As an aside, man oh man I sure am glad I'm out of that ugly rat race.
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Old 01-13-2015, 06:08 PM   #46
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I haven't Googled the author, Michael Church, yet. But I think this article is spot-on.

As an aside, man oh man I sure am glad I'm out of that ugly rat race.
His background on his "About" page hardly inspires me that he is qualified to give the advice he is giving.

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I live in Baltimore and my interests include machine learning, game design, computer programming, and startups.

Here’s a reasonably successful card game I developed: Ambition.
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:34 PM   #47
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I used to have the kind of job where I usually had to put one or two people on PIPs every year. (Most of them were specifically transferred into my group as their last chance.) In one case I thought the former manager was a doofus and gave the guy too hard of assignments. He stayed and thrived in the right job. I found out another person had medical issues so I found him a less taxing job in the company.

But otherwise my experience matches most of the other posters here. Most people on PIPs either quit, negotiated a severance or ended up getting fired.

I have also seen managers screw up and the employees get good sized settlements. They were the managers who were not detail oriented and did not run things by legal and HR. After I left my former employer I helped an employee with an out of the blue "performance issue" (after a good review, merit raise and big bonus!) find a good attorney. He received a nice settlement, found a new job right away and actually the manager got fired for not following company procedures and leaving them open to a lawsuit.

So +1 on the employment attorney. My former employer would do anything to avoid a lawsuit because they felt that jury trials were like throwing the dice and a sympathetic jury could mean a $1M+ award, warranted or not.
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:36 PM   #48
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I would get an attorney. Possibly some one made a mistake and those responsible need to be held accountable. You need to negotiate from a position of strength.
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:12 PM   #49
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This thread jarred my memory of something that happened to a good friend of mine. She was doing a difficult job really well. She found out something unethical was going on and she reported it (whistle blower). About six months later she was put on a PIP, even though she had always been rated highly. Well, she didn't achieve the state objectives on the PIP and was fired.

She had about 24 years in and really got screwed on her pension.

There is no way she could have met the PIP performance targets since the real reason for firing her was to retaliate for exposing something unethical.
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:17 PM   #50
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+2 this is exactly how it is done in my Megacorp. Once you're PIP'd you're done. We tell folks its to help them improve and become better more productive employees but we both know it's because they are in the bottom 10% of the rankings. Take the message and the severance and avoid the embarrassment and degradation that is sure to come.
Absolutely true. You don't want to stay in any place that has placed you on a "PIP". PIPS are the latest in the nasty tricks HR has learned from outside consultants on how to screw employees.

I advise:

1) Trust absolutely nothing anyone from HR says. They're paid to appear sincere, but they are in bed with the organization's interests, not yours.
2) Don't take the first severance amount offered; counter with at least 6 months additional severance and 6 months additional paid COBRA or remaining on the company's medical plan;
3) They will probably balk, but after 36 years of excellent performance reviews, this employee will be in at least one protected class (age, over 40). If he chooses to sue, the burden will be on the company to prove that this sudden one new bad review is not a pretext for age discrimination. Don't hesitate to mention you're thinking of seeing an attorney, and do see one if you truly feel age or other discrimination may have been a factor.
4) As part of the severance agreement, have it state in writing that your application for unemployment will not be contested;
5) Also obtain their commitment not to provide any kind of negative reference information to your prospective employers; in fact, use a colleague or other source in the organization as a reference instead of your current boss;
6) Negotiate 6 months of outplacement assistance. Most outplacement companies are worthless, IMO, but it's an added benefit worth at least a few thousand, and they could turn out to be very good. Again, they may balk and counter, but at least you negotiated.
7) If you seek another position after this, aim to negotiate a salary a minimum 20% higher than your current salary, so that something good can come from this unfortunate incident.

Good luck.
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Old 01-13-2015, 11:11 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Helen View Post
This thread jarred my memory of something that happened to a good friend of mine. She was doing a difficult job really well. She found out something unethical was going on and she reported it (whistle blower). About six months later she was put on a PIP, even though she had always been rated highly. Well, she didn't achieve the state objectives on the PIP and was fired.

She had about 24 years in and really got screwed on her pension.

There is no way she could have met the PIP performance targets since the real reason for firing her was to retaliate for exposing something unethical.
Drifting a little from the OP , But , anyone considering being a whistle blower , you better be 100% squeaky clean yourself AND either be ready and able to retire or get another employer on short notice.

The King (employer)often has the urge to kill the messenger of bad news. It's just the way Kings ( employers) often are.
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Old 01-13-2015, 11:24 PM   #52
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His background on his "About" page hardly inspires me that he is qualified to give the advice he is giving.
His closing advice is to be professional, and then he drops an F-bomb. I'm not confident that his claims about the legal implications of signing are correct. He does not appear to have a legal background. Nevertheless, I would want to really understand what the PIP said, and possibly have it reviewed by MY lawyer before I would sign such an important and unfamiliar document.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:16 AM   #53
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Back in the mid-1990s, when I was still working full-time at MegaCorp as a supervisor, we had a re-org which expanded my division's functions and shrunk 2 other division's functions and merged them together. We also added a few workers from those other divisions to compensate us. However, two of our added workers turned out to be their worst ones and both of them, at the time of their next employee review, ended up being put on a 60-day extreme probationary period, kinda like the PIP described here. One of them was in my specific work unit so I was assigned to work with him. I also saw his last performance review (from his old division) and it was the worst one I ever saw.


He was told specifically the things he was doing wrong and what he needed to do to fix them. But in those next 60 days, he kept doing those same things wrong, like he had the words, "Fire me!" taped to his forehead. At the end of his 60 days, I had to recommend to my boss that he be let go. It turned my stomach to have to make a recommendation like that, but I knew it was the right thing to do. I saw the effect his poor work was having on coworkers at his level but could not tell them what we were doing until he was actually told he was being let go and packing his things. He did receive a severance package but because he hadn't been with us for very long it wasn't very big. HR didn't get involved until he was told he was getting fired although they were informed about the extreme probationary period.


The other worker, meanwhile, was also not doing very well. He was in another work unit in my division. He had been with the company for a few years but his problem wasn't being inept so much as being insubordinate. He knew he wasn't go make it through the same extreme probationary period, one he had successfully gotten through once before, I would later learn. But this guy shot himself in the foot when he didn't report to work for 3 days. According to company rules, if someone fails to show up or check in for 3 days, it is considered a resignation so he lost his chance to receive a severance package, one which would have been bigger than my guy's severance package because he was with MegaCorp for several years.


We were also a little concerned this guy, who happened to be black, might try to sue us for discrimination. But because my guy was white and did get fired at the same time, that would blunt a discrimination lawsuit (there was none).


While it was a sad chapter of my career, getting rid of both men did lift a weight off the collective shoulders of everyone in my division.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:39 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Helen View Post
This thread jarred my memory of something that happened to a good friend of mine. She was doing a difficult job really well. She found out something unethical was going on and she reported it (whistle blower). About six months later she was put on a PIP, even though she had always been rated highly. Well, she didn't achieve the state objectives on the PIP and was fired.

She had about 24 years in and really got screwed on her pension.

There is no way she could have met the PIP performance targets since the real reason for firing her was to retaliate for exposing something unethical.
That's really unfortunate. Our Megacorp has a policy against retaliation and encourages employee to report any unethical behaviors.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:54 AM   #55
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That's really unfortunate. Our Megacorp has a policy against retaliation and encourages employee to report any unethical behaviors.
And if you believe them, you are living in a dream world.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:14 AM   #56
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I couldn't recall hearing of a "PIP" before, but at the same time, the phrase did sound vaguely familiar. Then it hit me...my first employer, McDonnell-Douglas Space Systems, called their annual review the "CPIP", for "Continuous Performance Improvement Process".

So, I'm glad this topic got brought up, so I'll know what's going on if I ever get "PIP'ed"
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:15 AM   #57
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....... We also added a few workers from those other divisions to compensate us. However, two of our added workers turned out to be their worst ones .........
I'm shocked. Surely it was pure coincidence.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:22 AM   #58
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And if you believe them, you are living in a dream world.
+1. When I hired into MegaMotors, my headcount was tasked to HR for the first 24 months while I did three 8 month rotations in different areas of the company. They told me, "if you see anything being done wrong, tell us right away". On my first assignment, I had basically nothing to do as they had about a half dozen people doing what was a one or two man job, then they would come in on Saturday to collect OT, on the manager's orders.

I was so naive, I relayed this back to my guy at HR. He called my boss before I walked back to my desk and the retaliation began. Thankfully, I soon rotated out of there and I learned never to trust HR, even after I was promoted into management.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:37 AM   #59
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That's really unfortunate. Our Megacorp has a policy against retaliation and encourages employee to report any unethical behaviors.
The megacorp where I once worked had a "Confidential" hot line for reporting ethical violations. Management was pressuring people in our department to sign off on a value for a very large liability (major impact on earnings) that we believed was too low. Without going into too much detail, this quantity is complex to calculate, requires a lot of judgment and a pretty wide range of values could be reasonable, but they wanted something too far towards the low end.

An employee in our department called the Ethics hotline and reported it. Shortly after that, his boss got a call from the company CEO complaining that the guy had reported it. So much for confidentiality. The employee is still there, I'm happy to say. Shortly thereafter, our sub was sold and the parent company had to take a huge haircut on the sales price because that liability was considered too low by the buyer, even though it was higher than management had wanted to book.
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Old 01-14-2015, 11:43 AM   #60
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And if you believe them, you are living in a dream world.
agreed - you cannot always trust what they say.
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