Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Work Situation - Opinions please
Old 01-12-2015, 05:12 PM   #1
Recycles dryer sheets
sheldon cornped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 124
Work Situation - Opinions please

An employee met with his manager and HR person and was presented a 90 day performance improvement plan (PIP). He was told if he didn't meet the performance standards in the PIP after signing, he would be terminated on or before the 90 days. The HR person said "if you don't wish to sign the PIP, I can check on a severance package for you if like. Does anyone think this is a trap? What if they check and a package is not available? What are the risks here? Thanks for your input as always.
__________________

__________________
sheldon cornped is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 01-12-2015, 05:17 PM   #2
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nash031's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Coronado
Posts: 1,489
My wife is in a director level position at a company where they have a separate HR that handles employee performance based on her input. In the instances where she has had HR issue a 90-day PIP, it has 100% of the time resulted in eventual (usually near-term) termination, usually due to failure to meet the PIP. It's a step in the termination process. I can't speak to the severance issue other than to say in the instances where my wife was involved in terminating employees in this manner, there wasn't any severance involved, just already accrued pay and vacation reimbursement.
__________________

__________________
"So we beat to our own drummer in the sun;
We ask for nobody's permission to run.
I just wanna live in a world like that;
Now I'm gonna live in a world like that!" - World Like That, O.A.R.
nash031 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 05:23 PM   #3
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
I don't think it is a trap.


BUT ... in my megacorp experience, I can tell you more than 1/2 don't make it out of PIP. They either find another job or get terminated. The rest make it out of PIP but not without heavy financial penalty (no salary increase, no bonus, etc for duration and even after PIP) and the perception of having been a "bad" employee. My suggestion is that you find a new job while going along with PIP (to buy time).
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 05:35 PM   #4
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Lisa99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Villages
Posts: 1,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by nash031 View Post
it has 100% of the time resulted in eventual (usually near-term) termination, usually due to failure to meet the PIP
+1

I've been a manager for a long time and a PIP is a tick in the box before someone can be fired in my mega corp. I've only had to do a few PIPs but once you're subject to a PIP it's almost impossible to find another job in the company and if you were able to do the job there wouldn't be a PIP involved. If you're fired there is no severance.

If they're offering to see if a package is available I'd jump at it if I were offered it.
__________________
Learning how to be still, to really be still and let life happen - that stillness becomes a radiance -
Morgan Freeman
Lisa99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:02 PM   #5
Moderator
rodi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 8,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa99 View Post
If they're offering to see if a package is available I'd jump at it if I were offered it.
I've seen peers in this situation - and it was definitely a reputation killer. No other manager or department, within the company, would touch an employee who'd gone through a PIP plan. Even YEARS after coming out the other side. And no promotions were ever offered.

I saw two people, specifically, who had PIPs, met all the requirements, weren't fired then... but when the layoff lists came around they were literally at the top of the list.

One had no choice but to go through the PIP process since she was on an H1B visa - so termination without another job in hand meant leaving the country.
__________________
Retired June 2014. No longer an enginerd - now I'm just a nerd.
micro pensions 7%, rental income 18%
rodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:02 PM   #6
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa99 View Post
+1

I've been a manager for a long time and a PIP is a tick in the box before someone can be fired in my mega corp. I've only had to do a few PIPs but once you're subject to a PIP it's almost impossible to find another job in the company and if you were able to do the job there wouldn't be a PIP involved. If you're fired there is no severance.

If they're offering to see if a package is available I'd jump at it if I were offered it.
+1
I've only done a few, only one person came out of theirs. I can write a PIP thats impossible to achieve, I've seen it done to people.

If the package sounds OK, if it were me I'd take it. Understand once you were given one of these it was ok'ed by HR. You are all lined up for termination.

Maybe you work in a kinder gentler Megacorp than I did. So YMMV. Best wishes.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app
__________________
MRG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:14 PM   #7
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Lisa99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Villages
Posts: 1,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRG View Post
+1
Maybe you work in a kinder gentler Megacorp than I did
kinder gentler AND megacorp aren't usually said in the same sentence nowadays unfortunately.
__________________
Learning how to be still, to really be still and let life happen - that stillness becomes a radiance -
Morgan Freeman
Lisa99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:35 PM   #8
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa99 View Post
kinder gentler AND megacorp aren't usually said in the same sentence nowadays unfortunately.
I know but I can always hope for Poly and Anna to meet again.

I know there out there, just waiting.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app
__________________
MRG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:42 PM   #9
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
David1961's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldon cornped View Post
He was told if he didn't meet the performance standards in the PIP after signing, he would be terminated on or before the 90 days.
Does this mean they don't even have to wait the 90 days to fire you? Is there any minimum time before they can terminate the employee? Seems like a trap.
__________________
David1961 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:49 PM   #10
Recycles dryer sheets
sheldon cornped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 124
I neglected to say that this person has had 36 consecutive years of good performance reviews. The latest was the first bad one, although did not get the worst rating possible. The supervisor has anger management issues which the employee has yet to divulge this information. The employee can cite numerous occasions where Code of Conduct policy has been violated.
__________________
sheldon cornped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 06:51 PM   #11
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldon cornped View Post
An employee met with his manager and HR person and was presented a 90 day performance improvement plan (PIP). He was told if he didn't meet the performance standards in the PIP after signing, he would be terminated on or before the 90 days. The HR person said "if you don't wish to sign the PIP, I can check on a severance package for you if like. Does anyone think this is a trap? What if they check and a package is not available? What are the risks here? Thanks for your input as always.
Since you really don't have much to lose I would push to get the specifics of the severance prior to the decision to signing the PIP. It is only good business practice to insist on knowing the details of your options. If the HP person has any ethics or integrity at all this should not be a problem.
__________________
Retired in 2016. Living off dividends / interest and a mini pension. Freedom.
foxfirev5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 07:07 PM   #12
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nash031's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Coronado
Posts: 1,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldon cornped View Post
I neglected to say that this person has had 36 consecutive years of good performance reviews. The latest was the first bad one, although did not get the worst rating possible. The supervisor has anger management issues which the employee has yet to divulge this information. The employee can cite numerous occasions where Code of Conduct policy has been violated.
If this is true and this person chooses to pursue this path, I would not sign the PIP, submit a statement to that affect, seek out the company's grievance procedures and consider legal counsel. While not likely to fix the difference in personalities, it might get some form of severance. The caution here being that if all that exists is anecdotal evidence with no documentation of said Code of Conduct issues, it will be easily dismissed as retribution for a poor performance review and issuance of a PIP, and likely not help the situation in any way, shape, or form.

In any event, I don't really see a way that I would want to stay employed there and would still suggest that this ends in termination of one form or another. The company is starting action to terminate, regardless of other circumstances.
__________________
"So we beat to our own drummer in the sun;
We ask for nobody's permission to run.
I just wanna live in a world like that;
Now I'm gonna live in a world like that!" - World Like That, O.A.R.
nash031 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 07:11 PM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by David1961 View Post
Does this mean they don't even have to wait the 90 days to fire you? Is there any minimum time before they can terminate the employee? Seems like a trap.
That's how it was where I w*rked may be different by state and company.

Let's say I write up a hypothetical person for using offensive language in the workplace. After that is disclosed, hypothetical person uses offensive language directed at me(and my witness). Security is called next.

There's a hundred other ways to get someone out the door. Best advise if any package is offered take it. Unless you work for my Pollyanna company the offer decays rapidly.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app
__________________
MRG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 07:36 PM   #14
Recycles dryer sheets
Derslickmeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRG View Post
+1
I've only done a few, only one person came out of theirs. I can write a PIP thats impossible to achieve, I've seen it done to people.

If the package sounds OK, if it were me I'd take it. Understand once you were given one of these it was ok'ed by HR. You are all lined up for termination.

Maybe you work in a kinder gentler Megacorp than I did. So YMMV. Best wishes.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app
+2 this is exactly how it is done in my Megacorp. Once you're PIP'd you're done. We tell folks its to help them improve and become better more productive employees but we both know it's because they are in the bottom 10% of the rankings. Take the message and the severance and avoid the embarrassment and degradation that is sure to come.
__________________
Derslickmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 08:35 PM   #15
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Lakewood90712's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldon cornped View Post
I neglected to say that this person has had 36 consecutive years of good performance reviews. The latest was the first bad one, although did not get the worst rating possible. The supervisor has anger management issues which the employee has yet to divulge this information. The employee can cite numerous occasions where Code of Conduct policy has been violated.
36 years, can you say "age discrimination " ?

Time for a chat with an employee rights atty.

The bad thing is , as others have posted, without documented proof of wrongdoing by the supervisor, the employee is toast. In my experience ,it's even worse in civil service, as I have seen first hand, the whistle blower is routinely thrown off the cliff, because he/she has now brought a problem up to the surface that has to be dealt with.
__________________
“The finance industry is 5% rational people and 95% shamans and faith healers.” - Charlie Munger
Lakewood90712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 08:50 PM   #16
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
36 years, can you say "age discrimination " ?

Time for a chat with an employee rights atty.

The bad thing is , as others have posted, without documented proof of wrongdoing by the supervisor, the employee is toast. In my experience ,it's even worse in civil service, as I have seen first hand, the whistle blower is routinely thrown off the cliff, because he/she has now brought a problem up to the surface that has to be dealt with.
Age discrimination is indeed rampant, but unfortunately very difficult to prove. Evidence that would be accepted as "solid" for race or sex discrimination seems to just get blown off (even by SCOTUS) when age is the issue.
Age discrimination at work: How to fightÂ*back - Fortune
Chat with an atty is fine, but likely just wasted time & $$.

I agree with others that PIP basically means time to get another j#b. Or retire if that option is open.
__________________
ERhoosier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:09 PM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERhoosier View Post
Age discrimination is indeed rampant, but unfortunately very difficult to prove. Evidence that would be accepted as "solid" for race or sex discrimination seems to just get blown off (even by SCOTUS) when age is the issue.
Age discrimination at work: How to fightÂ*back - Fortune
Chat with an atty is fine, but likely just wasted time & $$.

I agree with others that PIP basically means time to get another j#b. Or retire if that option is open.
I agree we had 300+ people listen to a new V.P. when he said "I want a younger, cheaper workforce ".

A few brave people went to HR about the "younger" comment as most of the people were in a "protected class" (age > 40). The respose was all 300 of you misunderstood what was said.

The folks that were older and didn't work 60-80 hours a week were soon gone.

Good luck and best wishes.

Edit to add: I would consult an attorney anyways, most offer free initial consultation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app
__________________
MRG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:10 PM   #18
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
target2019's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,710
Yeah, the 36 years thing stands out. That is probably what is bringing about the severance talk. They don't want you, and realize that you have one card to play. So there is a little cake laid out for you near the exit.

I would consult an attorney for advice, so that you don't falter and accept a low-ball package.
__________________
target2019 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:26 PM   #19
Full time employment: Posting here.
Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 782
I saw this tactic several times at my last company. I would ask HR for the severance offer in writing and ask that the company not deny unemployment. A PIP is a death sentence.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum
__________________
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:42 PM   #20
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
One caution ....

Despite what others may lead you to believe, in employee vs management situation, employee rarely wins if at all. Something short of sexual and other harassment with witness who will back you up, it's not worth going all out against the management. Only dumb manager will make big enough mistake to shoot himself in the foot. Your best bet is to move on.
__________________

__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A little help with parental situation please nnkrealtor FIRE and Money 22 06-03-2014 11:46 AM
Mortgage Refi situation, seeking opinions Mulligan FIRE and Money 10 09-20-2012 10:14 PM
How to cope with bad work situation? brewer12345 Young Dreamers 324 03-24-2010 11:26 AM
Unsure of self with guest situation - help please Amethyst Other topics 23 04-26-2009 11:06 AM
S.O.S - Terrible work situation - Advice pls. Tracker FIRE and Money 43 05-06-2008 01:26 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:55 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.