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Old 02-19-2008, 04:58 PM   #41
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I guess things in the good ole US of A ain't as bad as some trying to get elected would make you believe.
Nope, we got it pretty damn good. At least I am thankful for my lot in life.
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Old 02-19-2008, 05:55 PM   #42
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Nope, we got it pretty damn good. At least I am thankful for my lot in life.
That was my thought exactly when I found that website...
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Teachers
Old 02-19-2008, 08:58 PM   #43
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Teachers

While I am certainly no expert on teachers salaries (although I did know some teachers when I was younger) according the to Virginia Department of Education Salary Survey the average teacher makes $50,000 in Virginia and the average pricipal makes $90,000 this puts Virginia right in the middle of the pack of states. Not quite the six figure job other posters were talking about but certainly a nice middle class existence for a two income house hold. Perhaps the $100,000 includes salary and benefits they do get decent health care, pension and leave benefits it could also be an annualized representation of the 8 month salary.

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Fin...larySurvey.pdf
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:55 PM   #44
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I don't think salaries are any indication of what 'value' society places on a job. It simply reflects the free market (with some exceptions where things interfere with that free market). If a wood grinder makes more than a nurse, it must be because companies need to pay more to attract wood grinders (unless there is some strong WG Union or something, I don't know).

I can't imagine how we would set salaries based on 'value'. Who is going to decide whether a fireman is more 'valuable' than a nurse? Does the fireman get a vote in that? I'd rather leave it to the free market.

-ERD50
actually they are indicative because the make-up of free markets which you credit as being the object in the mirror is itself determined by the values of those societies. so while the salaries might reflect the so-called free market, it is that free market which reflects basic values. even these values do not naturally spring from the earth; rather they are constructs manufactured in the mind. there is no more intrinsic value to any particular career than there is to any so-called precious metal, save what society ascribes to it. this might look real but this is all made up. just because something is what it is does not mean that it has to be or was meant to be that way.

the illusion in the mirror is the free market which has been constructed based upon values. we trade pork bellies instead of smiles. gold instead of sea shells. these are the values of capitalism out of which eminates the free market, a bit of a misnomer as i suspect this market a bit of a trap, but i editorialize.

if we did not so very highly value, say, medicine, likely caused by our aversion to pain but even more likely advanced by a fear of mortality, then doctors would not be much in demand and so they would not be able to command such high salaries. that market would not exist as it does were it not for our values. surgeons would be valued less than car mechanics in a society which worshipped less our bodies and more, as we almost do, our automobiles.

look at our own free market. who gets paid the most? is it the people who produce? or the brokers who "create" "value"? free markets are not the bones of society, they are merely the clothing. values are at the core of societies and they are reflected in all the mechanisms of trade.
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Old 02-20-2008, 12:42 AM   #45
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actually they are indicative because the make-up of free markets which you credit as being the object in the mirror is itself determined by the values of those societies. so while the salaries might reflect the so-called free market, it is that free market which reflects basic values. even these values do not naturally spring from the earth; rather they are constructs manufactured in the mind. there is no more intrinsic value to any particular career than there is to any so-called precious metal, save what society ascribes to it. this might look real but this is all made up. just because something is what it is does not mean that it has to be or was meant to be that way.

the illusion in the mirror is the free market which has been constructed based upon values. we trade pork bellies instead of smiles. gold instead of sea shells. these are the values of capitalism out of which eminates the free market, a bit of a misnomer as i suspect this market a bit of a trap, but i editorialize.

if we did not so very highly value, say, medicine, likely caused by our aversion to pain but even more likely advanced by a fear of mortality, then doctors would not be much in demand and so they would not be able to command such high salaries. that market would not exist as it does were it not for our values. surgeons would be valued less than car mechanics in a society which worshipped less our bodies and more, as we almost do, our automobiles.

look at our own free market. who gets paid the most? is it the people who produce? or the brokers who "create" "value"? free markets are not the bones of society, they are merely the clothing. values are at the core of societies and they are reflected in all the mechanisms of trade.
I think you were my philosophy prof back in 87'! Did you ever give a dissertation on the moral implications to humanity of Kirk harming the "Rock Man" in the original Star Trek series?
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:26 AM   #46
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I just love the teacher bashing that goes on here. 100K teacher salary, Ok if you taught for 40 years and have a PHD in the public schools in parts of NJ CT and NY yep near 100 K. Pensions, well as I stated before when I started teaching in 77 I had NO CHOICE but to be in the pension system and the state took out 5% of my salary every paycheck for 30 years. If people don't like teachers having pensions well get the laws changed. As we speak, the rules are changing even now after I have been retired, I now pay more for the healthcare that was in the deal. So I will take care of it by working some easy part time stuff. Don't get me started about how the kids cannot learn and the summer vacations. Parents need to look in the mirror. That is why many of their little darlings don't learn much. But look at the teacher salaries here in North Carolina... A first year teacher makes about 30K a year, 10 years about 40K 25 years 55K. No union. No thanks, I would not start a career in education just out of college in North Carolina. Pay for health care out of pocket for spouse and children. Again some of the reasons for the teacher shortage down here in NC. Teachers do not stay .
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:53 AM   #47
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actually they are indicative because the make-up of free markets which you credit as being the object in the mirror is itself determined by the values of those societies. so while the salaries might reflect the so-called free market, it is that free market which reflects basic values. ....
I see where you are coming from, but it also looks to me that you are ignoring the 'supply side' of that argument.

Take your Doctor example - it is not just that we value medicine, or our bodies. The supply side issue is that it takes a lot of smarts, dedication, time and money in school to become a Doctor. A relatively small % of the population is capable and motivated and interested enough in that line of work to pursue it. It takes a reasonably high compensation to get enough supply.

Some will argue that there are some non-free-market issues at work in Doctor supply. That may be true, and if so should be corrected IMO, but it is part of the current supply equation and it does explain why Doctors receive the compensation they do (which, all things considered, does not strike me as unreasonable anyhow).

Sea Shells versus Gold - supply issue again.

I'll counter that with a Renoir painting - just a couple bucks of canvas and oil paint, but we value it much higher than that. There's lots of canvas and oil paint, but very few Renoirs.

Another example - we all 'value' air, but because there is usually a good supply of it, we don't pay for it. If it is limited in supply (deep sea diving?), then we are willing to pay. Only difference is the supply, not the intrinsic value we place upon it.

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Old 02-20-2008, 10:07 AM   #48
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Again some of the reasons for the teacher shortage down here in NC. Teachers do not stay .
Simple supply/demand. If NC cannot attract enough teachers (or any other job) they need to make the package more attractive (money and/or other things).

I refuse to make a 'value judgment' on someone else's salary, or the cost of any product. If they can get it (in a free market), then they deserve it. If they can't, they deserve that too.

What is the alternative to a free market? Someone in a government position sets wages for every job? That would be insane. If I need someone to dig a ditch, I need to be willing to pay whatever it takes to get someone to do the job. If the govt tells me that ditch diggers can only make $X/hour, and I can't get anyone to do the job for that, then where am I? Is that govt bureaucrat going to come dig the ditch for me? I think not.

What's the old expression? 'Capitalism is the worst system in the world - except for everything else'? Something like that?


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Old 02-20-2008, 10:08 AM   #49
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Don't get me started about how the kids cannot learn and the summer vacations. Parents need to look in the mirror. That is why many of their little darlings don't learn much.
I agree that parents are partly to blame for kid's poor performance in school.


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But look at the teacher salaries here in North Carolina... A first year teacher makes about 30K a year, 10 years about 40K 25 years 55K. No union. No thanks, I would not start a career in education just out of college in North Carolina. Pay for health care out of pocket for spouse and children. Again some of the reasons for the teacher shortage down here in NC. Teachers do not stay .
When I lived in NC, I used to get so mad about the amount of money I had to pay in taxes to finance public schools! Yet it seemed to never be enough! If they don't use the money to pay teachers where does all the money go? I know that in wake county they probably use some of the money to buy new trailers for overcrowded schools and build new schools to keep up with population growth. I don't know, I always felt that in NC the level of service provided by the state and local governments (including public education) was lower than I would have expected to receive given the level of taxation at the state/local level.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:39 PM   #50
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I think you were my philosophy prof back in 87'! Did you ever give a dissertation on the moral implications to humanity of Kirk harming the "Rock Man" in the original Star Trek series?
no but that would be my style. had you been my forth grade classmate you might have debated me on the infinite & why space is our final frontier, complete with bulletin board, table display and my model of the then pending apollo moon mission.

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I see where you are coming from, but it also looks to me that you are ignoring the 'supply side' of that argument.

Take your Doctor example - it is not just that we value medicine, or our bodies. The supply side issue is that it takes a lot of smarts, dedication, time and money in school to become a Doctor. A relatively small % of the population is capable and motivated and interested enough in that line of work to pursue it. It takes a reasonably high compensation to get enough supply.

Some will argue that there are some non-free-market issues at work in Doctor supply. That may be true, and if so should be corrected IMO, but it is part of the current supply equation and it does explain why Doctors receive the compensation they do (which, all things considered, does not strike me as unreasonable anyhow).

Sea Shells versus Gold - supply issue again.

I'll counter that with a Renoir painting - just a couple bucks of canvas and oil paint, but we value it much higher than that. There's lots of canvas and oil paint, but very few Renoirs.

Another example - we all 'value' air, but because there is usually a good supply of it, we don't pay for it. If it is limited in supply (deep sea diving?), then we are willing to pay. Only difference is the supply, not the intrinsic value we place upon it.

-ERD50
sorry, no. not ignoring supply anything. i did not say that once an animal has been born that it does not take upon a life of its own but even then ancestral genes are traceable.

even your supply side reasoning still speaks to primal values rather than values spun off some economic system. just because not many people might want to be or even could be a doctor still gives no reason by itself as to why they get paid so much. you can argue supply and demand but, again, that emanates of a system derived from a certain set of values favoring, for one thing, greed over sharing as well as some worthy values. you can argue it is because they have to pay a few $100k for schooling and so therefore they get to charge a few $mm later but it is still the values which have set up the system which make that exchange viable.

another system's values might, say, pay for the doctor's schooling and then maybe high prices aren't quite so justified. or yet another society might highly value altruism and selflessness whereby people become doctors not for what they can get from society but rather for what they can offer society. they not only wouldn't be paid much but--more to the point--they would not accept much as they are only doing what they just happen to have a talent for and consider that their contribution to this shared society. consider doctors without borders; what is their profit margin?

sure, systems spin off secondary values, but it is the primary ones which set up that system of trade in the first place and i suspect they leave telltale signs in salaries of particular careers.

just what is the price of your renoir in a world where only the highest bidder gets to enjoy it privately? what does it say of the value of that system. now what is the price of that very same renoir where nobody gets to bid but instead it is placed in a museum where everyone can enjoy it for free? what does it say of the value of that system? capitalism is nothing more than a mirror of a set of values. i know how to live in that mirror but i do not care to be trapped there.
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:14 PM   #51
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LG4NB, interesting perspective. I guess I tend to look at things like this in terms of the simple economic models, you are looking at them in a much more philosophical way. I'm not sure the end result is much different though.

I may not convey this well, but that won't keep me from trying . I'm thinking the whole supply/demand thing *is* a reflection of societies values, and maybe the best reflection that we have?

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... just because not many people might want to be or even could be a doctor still gives no reason by itself as to why they get paid so much. you can argue supply and demand but, ...

you can argue it is because they have to pay a few $100k for schooling and so therefore they get to charge a few $mm later ...
and that is where the demand side comes back into play. There *is* demand for doctors <insert any high paid profession>, and high 'barriers to entry' (smarts, education, time, $, motivation) - so that leads to high pay.

I get the sense that people miss the supply/demand thing when I see phrases like 'they get to charge....'. It doesn't work that way. I could invest a bunch of time and money in learning some skill that has no demand, and I wouldn't 'get to charge' anything for it. People pay what they need to, for doctors or ditch-diggers.

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another system's values might, say, pay for the doctor's schooling and then maybe high prices aren't quite so justified.
Yes, with lower barriers to entry, salaries (on average) would go down. But, there is no free lunch, so since we would be part of the system that paid for the education, it sounds like a circle to me. Unless that system creates *more* doctors, then prices could come down, but that is just supply/demand again.

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doing what they just happen to have a talent for and consider that their contribution to this shared society. consider doctors without borders; what is their profit margin?
There are plenty of example in society. Many people take jobs that don't pay well, but they are doing something they love, or something that they feel is very needed and appreciated. 'Total compensation' is certianly not measured only in $'s. Most people give to charities, and don't try to measure the profit margin.

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sure, systems spin off secondary values, but it is the primary ones which set up that system of trade in the first place and i suspect they leave telltale signs in salaries of particular careers.
No doubt.

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just what is the price of your renoir in a world where only the highest bidder gets to enjoy it privately? what does it say of the value of that system. now what is the price of that very same renoir where nobody gets to bid but instead it is placed in a museum where everyone can enjoy it for free? what does it say of the value of that system?
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Is someone (a gov't?) going to determine who can own private artworks or not? I don't think I'd like that intrusion into my life. Now, if a private collector tried to buy up every renoir in the world so no one else could enjoy them - well, I'd bet museums would be able to raise money to keep them - that would show the value to society. BTW, the Art Institute in Chicago *is* free this whole month - I got there and enjoyed the Renoirs, among others.

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capitalism is nothing more than a mirror of a set of values. i know how to live in that mirror but i do not care to be trapped there.
Yes, I agree that capitalism is a mirror. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, and I certainly don't know anything to replace it.

I hope none of this came across as 'argumentative' (seems I can't tell) - I appreciate discussion with people with different views, I need a fresh outlook from time to time.

-ERD50
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Old 02-21-2008, 07:25 AM   #52
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The 100K salary is really not a supply and demand thing. The teacher making the 100K had to be there in the position for upwards of 35 to 40 years. The new teacher getting the job will make 40K with less benefits and most likely never staying that many years as a teacher.
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:23 AM   #53
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The 100K salary is really not a supply and demand thing. The teacher making the 100K had to be there in the position for upwards of 35 to 40 years. The new teacher getting the job will make 40K with less benefits and most likely never staying that many years as a teacher.
Until teachers stopp trying to be doctors, and prescribe medicines and actually take control of their classromms, like they were in control several year/decades ago they will not receive much sympathy from me. My son is in fourth grade now. HIs kindergarten teacher said, after the first month, "He is very active and needs to be seen by a doctor." She also had issues with most of her other students. His first grade teacher said the same thing. This time we actually took him to his doctor and filled out the questionaire, along with his teacher. The results of the survey, yes he is very active, but not hyperactive so no treatment required. The ironic thing is the teacher's survey results put my son at the lowest activity level of the three survey, so what does that say about her asssessment of her other students and her control of her classroom. His second grade teacher, who also was very experienced, didn't have a probem with him. HIs first thrid grade teacher again wanted him druged and under medical treatment for ADHD. She as a bit shoked when she was informed that he would not be receiving treatment (she wsa not made aware of his last schools attempts to give him drugs). His second third grade teacher didn't have any problems with my son. Most of his fourth grade teachers want him on drugs, again. I find it very interesting that the teachers my son likes the most are the ones who put him in his place. I also find it interesting that the teachers, who CONTROL
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:34 AM   #54
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The 100K salary is really not a supply and demand thing. The teacher making the 100K had to be there in the position for upwards of 35 to 40 years. The new teacher getting the job will make 40K with less benefits and most likely never staying that many years as a teacher.
Until teachers stop trying to be doctors, and prescribe medicines and actually take control of their classrooms, like they were in control several year/decades ago they will not receive much sympathy from me. My son is in fourth grade now. His kindergarten teacher said, after the first month, "He is very active and needs to be seen by a doctor." She also had issues with most of her other students. His first grade teacher said the same thing. This time we actually took him to his doctor and filled out the questionnaire, along with his teacher. The results of the survey, yes he is very active, but not hyperactive so no treatment required. The ironic thing is the teacher's survey results put my son at the lowest activity level of the three survey, so what does that say about her assessment of her other students and her control of her classroom. His second grade teacher, who also was very experienced, didn't have a problem with him. His first third grade teacher again wanted him drugged and under medical treatment for ADHD. She as a bit shocked when she was informed that he would not be receiving treatment (she was not made aware of his last schools attempts to give him drugs). His second third grade teacher didn't have any problems with my son. Most of his fourth grade teachers want him on drugs, again. I find it very interesting that the teachers my son likes the most are the ones who put him in his place. I also find it interesting that the teachers, who CONTROL their classrooms are the ones who are able to get him to do the things he is supposed to be doing, with very few problems.

I will be the first to lay into my son when he is doing things he is not supposed to do. When I receive notes from his teachers complaining that he is just playing in class and their response is to simply tell him to do his work instead of taking an appropriate action, to me it sounds like they do not have control of their classrooms. Sorry teachers, but kids are going to try to play. If you cannot stop them from playing, maybe you are in the wrong profession. I can explain to the kid what is appropriate conduct at school , and maybe discipline him when he gets home, but nothing is more effective than actually discipling the child in the classroom, when the inappropriate conduct is occurring.

Think about it a kid gets in trouble at school and their friends see a note go home to their parents. The kid's friends do not see any other negative actions occur, so the kid who's goofing off can say anything they want, about how nothing happened. If the kid is disciplined in class ans well as at home then it shows the other students that they will not get away with goofing off and having nothing happen.
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Old 02-21-2008, 09:45 AM   #55
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I'm thinking the whole supply/demand thing *is* a reflection of societies values, and maybe the best reflection that we have?
it is a reflection of this particular society's values. it is not a reflection of a society which does not hold as high similar values.

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and that is where the demand side comes back into play. There *is* demand for doctors <insert any high paid profession>, and high 'barriers to entry' (smarts, education, time, $, motivation) - so that leads to high pay.
even though demand can justify price within an artificially constructed economic system (as they all are) that does not mean that price is intrinsic to it, but rather price is based upon what we value. that statement was not meant to deny holy supply and demand in omnipresent capitalism. but if you did not value the services of a doctor--say you lived on a world inhabited only by christian scientists--then it would not matter if there was only one doc left on the entire planet for he still would not command much of a salary if no one valued his service.

whereas if the services of a court jester were highly regarded or valued, then the many court jesters might earn more than the few doctors simply because we placed a higher value on laughter than on surgery.

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Old 02-21-2008, 10:27 AM   #56
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............. My son is in fourth grade now. His kindergarten teacher said, after the first month, "He is very active and needs to be seen by a doctor." She also had issues with most of her other students. His first grade teacher said the same thing. This time we actually took him to his doctor and filled out the questionnaire, along with his teacher. The results of the survey, yes he is very active, but not hyperactive so no treatment required. The ironic thing is the teacher's survey results put my son at the lowest activity level of the three survey, so what does that say about her assessment of her other students and her control of her classroom. His second grade teacher, who also was very experienced, didn't have a problem with him. His first third grade teacher again wanted him drugged and under medical treatment for ADHD. She as a bit shocked when she was informed that he would not be receiving treatment (she was not made aware of his last schools attempts to give him drugs). His second third grade teacher didn't have any problems with my son. Most of his fourth grade teachers want him on drugs, again. I find it very interesting that the teachers my son likes the most are the ones who put him in his place. I also find it interesting that the teachers, who CONTROL their classrooms are the ones who are able to get him to do the things he is supposed to be doing, with very few problems.
...............
So, every teacher from kindergarten to 4th grade has a problem with your son's behavior and your conclusion is there is nothing wrong with your son - the teachers are all crazy? You may be able to control your son, but I doubt that you could do it with 25 other students to teach, especially within the confines of the allowable discipline actions dictated by the school system.

Sorry, but I think you may be enabling your son's behavior.
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Old 02-21-2008, 10:38 AM   #57
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even your supply side reasoning still speaks to primal values rather than values spun off some economic system. just because not many people might want to be or even could be a doctor still gives no reason by itself as to why they get paid so much.
Ok... I just had to comment on this one. Doctors have to go through 8+ years of schooling and often face $100,000+ of debt the moment that they get out of school. Is it really so wrong (or greedy) to want to be well compensated for that level of effort? If doctors got paid only 30k/year, then who in their right mind would EVER want to go through all of that? People willingly choose what professions to go into. I certainly hope you are not in favor of the govt determining what profession you may enter into, depending on which fields might happen to be lacking at the moment.
Anyone in the US is free to sell their services for as much as they want to. And people are free to accept, or reject those services as they wish. Just because you might think a service is too expensive does not mean that it is. The only thing that determines that a service is too expensive, is when people stop buying it, and the service provider goes out of business. Again... the fact vs. opinion thing. If a baker wants to try to sell cookies for $50 each, then that baker is free to do such a thing in america. More than likely he will not get it, and will go out of business if they try it, but you also have the right to make foolish business decisions in america too. I agree that the prices for medicine are at an all time high in this country, but the only cure to that is not more regulation from the govt, but less. With less regulation comes more competition among doctors, and the quality would go up, and the price would come down. I really am curious though.... if in your opinion it is not supply and demand that is currently determining how much a doctor makes, what exactly do you think determines it?
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:19 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by travelover View Post
So, every teacher from kindergarten to 4th grade has a problem with your son's behavior and your conclusion is there is nothing wrong with your son - the teachers are all crazy? You may be able to control your son, but I doubt that you could do it with 25 other students to teach, especially within the confines of the allowable discipline actions dictated by the school system.

Sorry, but I think you may be enabling your son's behavior.
Re-read what was written. Neither his second grade teacher, nor his second third grade teacher had a problem with his conduct. His kindergarten teacher didn't think the parents talked. Out of the 15 parents we talked to all of them had been pressured to put their kids on drugs, by the teacher. That's pretty impressive, since there were only 23 kids in his class. His first third grade teacher also didn't think the parents talked. During one of the open houses we discovered, out of 30 students, 19 parents seemed to have horrible children. When we went to the school office concerning our kid's behavior the secretary would roll her eyes as soon as she heard who the teacher was, as if to imply the teacher was the issue. I did forget to include his Pre-K teacher, who also didn't have any problems with him.

I try to stay out of the classroom policies, but when he was in kindergarten I had to put my foot down. When my kid was acting up she felt he had extra energy to burn off, so she would let him go outside to play for ten minutes. As soon as I found that out I told her if she did it again I would be filing a formal complaint, because all she was doing is providing positive reinforcement of bad behavior, then complaining that his behavior was bad.

As was written in the first post the teachers having issues with the kid all implied my son needed to be put on drugs. I have become very short with the teachers when they make that implication, since his doctor has recommended strongly against any drugs, even after he was "tested". I would place my faith in the surveys and opinion of the trained medical professionals before I place my trust in the medical advise of a teacher. Did you read the statement that when we did take the kid to be evaluated for treatment for ADHD his teachers survey showed he was less active, then mine and the DW's. The decision to seek an evaluation was made after he received two teachers who had problems with him. The final determination was he is active, but not so much that he needs treatment. So that goes back on the teacher, to control the classroom. As far as enabling he is punished when he steps out of line, however punishment three or four hours later is much less effective. Not too mention when the teacher let him get away with poor behavior time and time again with no negative repercussions and very little positive reinforcement of good behavior, he has no incentive to change his conduct in school.

Do you provide corrective actions to an unhouse broken dog three house after it has soiled your floor. It is a little late for that. The same goes or punishing the kid four or five hours after his gets into trouble at school. Several requests have been made to provide us feed back, both good and bad of his behavior in the classroom. Which has resulted in you kid have played continuously for the last few weeks.... when the last contact we had has been a month or two earlier. The point is if we are not appraised of the problem there is little we can do and if notified as soon as it occurs there is nothing we can do. So the problem is lack of teacher involvement in the kids education. As soon as it is affordable he is leaving the public sector for a better private school.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:27 AM   #59
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armor, half that i already addressed. the other half of what you seem to be saying had nothing to do with what i was talking about. erd50 was questioning my suggestion that careers are rewarded based upon a hierarchy of values which set up certain economic structures of societies.

if you do not believe that doctors receive compensation based on their perceived value to society and based upon how society believes compensation ought to be dispensed, then ask yourself why doctors get their own salutations but garbage men do not. no one is putting garbage men up on pedestals? the esteem placed on doctors has nothing to do with their high salaries?

before they fell out of favor of the tribe, witch doctors used to make a lot of money too.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:40 AM   #60
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............... As soon as it is affordable he is leaving the public sector for a better private school.
I think that is a good idea. It will allow the other kids in the public school classroom to get their fair share of attention.

I also really hope the change will work for your son.
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