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Old 07-22-2007, 12:42 AM   #21
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Old 07-22-2007, 02:48 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Of course it does. Statistically the majority of health care dollars are spent in the last year or so of peoples lives...which by definition means they didnt recover.

Much of the rest is eaten up by bureaucracy and profits.

Honestly...as a percentage lawsuits, illegal aliens and all the other hot button issues that excite people are such small pieces of the health care cost pie that they're almost irrelevant.

Well stated.

Although, the Illegal alien part is huge also. There are 12MM of them. That is a population of 6-7% of the total. Not minor. This is made up just to show an example: If the avg cost for each one of them costs the govt and hospital, doctors, medical community $2000 (unpaid bill or freebie) That is $24 B. Think about the cost of a mother going to the hospital for a pregnancy (very expensive). Or an accident or injury. The cost is the GDP of many countries.

And most of those end of life cases will apply to that 12MM of non-tax paying Illegals. You cannot deport someone in extremely bad health (near the end of life).
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Worry Sick about Health Insurance
Old 07-22-2007, 06:41 AM   #23
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Worry Sick about Health Insurance

i talked to a friend of a family from CANADA and i am started to think National Health Care in the US is NOT gonna work either.

She told me the corruption, abuse, misuse, ... are unbelievable. For example, everyone REFUSED to buy of-the-shelf pills like tylenol, advid... why, just because if they go to the doctor they get it prescribe and for free. she also mentioned that a headache, a stupid cough people would go the emergency room, again free...

don't know the details but i can imagine the abuse going on there, also she mentioned doctor there prescribed drugs to patients that are not really sick then these people take the drugs and send it to someone else for a fee or for free...

bla, bla,... i am just worry about health insurance caused i heard number 2 bankruptcy in the US is related to illness.

enuff
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Old 07-22-2007, 06:41 AM   #24
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To answer the original question, the cost of health insurance for my wife has essentially taken early retirement off my plate. There is no way I could even come close to the required savings level to be able to afford insurance for her and retire early, so early retirement is not an option. With that said, I still prefer the current system to one run by or paid for by the government.
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Old 07-22-2007, 09:19 AM   #25
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Well stated.

Although, the Illegal alien part is huge also. There are 12MM of them. That is a population of 6-7% of the total. Not minor.
Not really on topic, but I guess I opened the can of worms...

Its hard to nail down the real stats, since we know neither how many illegal aliens there really are, nor do we know how much unpaid healthcare they consume, since there isnt a checkbox on the hospital admittance form "I am an illegal alien and I wont be paying my bill today".

That having been said, prior to all the politicization of the illegal alien situation, the department of homeland security estimated the number of illegal aliens at 5M. SG had a post about 2 years ago that cited numerous credible sources that all more or less came down to the same number. Somehow that jumped to 12M. When I see stuff like this, I tend to believe the original, lower, non politically charged number.

A quote from another 2 year old post where I rounded up the details available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Salaryguru provides some good data.

1. SG points out with good sources that the approximate number of undocumented illegal aliens is ~5M.
2. There are approximately 45M americans without health care (DeNavas-Walt, C., B. Proctor, and R. J. Mills. Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2003. U.S. Census Bureau., August 2004.)
3. The US spends approximately $100B in care for the uninsured. (Institute of Medicine. Hidden Costs, Values Lost: Uninsurance in America. The National Academies Press. 17 June 2003 .)
4. About $34B of that $100B per year is uncompensated/unpaid (same source as above)
5. Another $37B of that $100B is paid by private and public payers of health care for the uninsured. For those who havent ever heard this, an enormous amount of money is available in grants and other programs for the uninsured. My mother in law, a charge nurse, made us all aware of this when she found grants to cover a car accident for my uninsured brother in law...paid all of his bills for free. ($37B number from same source as above)
6. Another $26B is paid out of pocket by the uninsured.

So if we make several presumptions:
- Citizens and documented aliens dont go to the hospital more often than undocumented aliens, and vice versa; I think this is generous since I think undocumented aliens are far less likely to go to a hospital.
- A hospital stay and/or emergency room treatment for a documented alien or citizen is no more or less costly than for an undocumented alien, which I think is also reasonable.

That makes uninsured, uncompensated losses at $34B, spread across the 45 million uninsured and the 5 million illegal aliens. Simple math given the above constraints says 1/10th of the cost is borne by illegal aliens, making this a $3.4B problem.

That makes the unreimbursed illegal alien healthcare problem 3.4% of the total uninsured healthcare "problem". Which is in the vicinity of statistical drift, lost in the noise.

If you care to argue that illegal aliens visit hospitals more often and/or cost more per visit than US citizens, please factor in that as many as 82 million...as much as 1/3 of the US population...spent at least part of 2002 or 2003 without health insurance for some period. See the same US census report above as source for this data.

As overall healthcare in the US reached 1.7 trillion and is estimated at 1.8 trillion in 2004 (3. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Office of the Actuary, National Health Statistics Group; and U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis and Bureau of the Census) the uninsured costs are a notable problem, but unreimbursed illegal alien healthcare costs become reduced in stature to incredibly irrelevant.
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Old 07-22-2007, 11:40 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Not really on topic, but I guess I opened the can of worms...
You did. Health care is only a small piece of the problem but it all adds up to a much bigger mess whether it's 5 or 25MM. You , CFB, live in the boonies of northern California, I think, but I'm not going to search the past post about your recent move. You may not be seeing the problem up close and personal.
  1. We clearly have lost control of our borders and social infrastructure. Where else in the world are "illegals" marching in the street demanding their "rights?" If these were Panamanians marching in Mexico their only "right" would be to hearded back across the border by whatever means are necessary.
  2. Houston is a focal point of Mexican gang activity. I can't say these are all illegals because their "anchor babies" (now US citizens) also seem to be fully engaged in the family business. They excel at narcotics, prostitution, slavery, auto theft and murder. The plus side of their activities is murdering their competition which is usually other Mexican gangs or New Orleans transplanted gangs. Who said they were doing work Americans don't want to do?
  3. DW and I have had 3 accidents in the last 5 years. One gave me a fake drivers licence and insurance card (appeared to be very Hispanic and spoke very little English so I think he just might be here without the proper work visa). He had a very nice, very new truck but the police later told me the license plate had expired and had previously been on a Taurus. The other two were hit and runs. I'd decribe the drivers but appearances lead me to believe there may have been a documentation issue. Do you think they might not want to wait for the police to arrive?
  4. Any money spent for the medical care, housing or feeding of illegal entrants to the US is money not spent on our own disadvantaged citizens. My only assumption is that the supporters of unlimited immigration into the US are racists that hate our US born poor -- many of whom are darker skinned and compete for the low skilled jobs taken by the illegal entrants into our country.
Have I made the thread hijack complete?
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:04 PM   #27
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Interesting stuff, but not particularly related to health care costs. At least I sort of stuck tangentially to the original topic

I actually live about 30 minutes from the capitol of the state of california. Right smack in the middle of one of the largest fruit, vegetable and dairy growing areas in the US. Which means we probably have just as many illegal aliens as anyone, excepting close border towns.

Without them, the farmers would sell their properties to developers, as they'd have no way to produce a reasonably priced product.

Which would make food costs a much larger problem.

ANNNNYHOW...to get back to the original topic, I think that most people who have a paid off house, healthcare covered, and at least 25-30k in annual cash flow can take a run at retirement. Without the healthcare coverage, you're too exposed. A major illness/injury 5 or more years into your ER when your job skills are a bit eroded could turn your life into a pretty bad situation.
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:18 PM   #28
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Age 49 to age 63 - health insurance and work or no health insurance and ER - I chose ER.

Don't do what I did! - it worked BUT I have no knowledge of the odds.

The cheapest quote I got in LA was ? 458/mo for 5k deductible. I believe my Cobra would have been around 728/mo in 93.

Age 63 in MO - 10k deductible 138/mo - time in in the market means I can afford it now.

Not recommended - but I've been known to commit other sins also.

heh heh heh - My actual ER would make a spreadsheet come alive and upchuck - but or I done what I done .

"never tell me the odds!" Han Solo - Star Wars. BTY my passport has been renewed and for 10k deduct - ??plane trip/Thailand or India?
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Old 07-22-2007, 01:01 PM   #29
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I suggest a simple solution: make your income in the USA, and export your retirement to a low cost, high value lifestyle country with socialized medicine. Offshore retirement cash flow in exchange for long term affordable medical coverage. Enjoy a Mai Tai on the beach in Sri Lanka or a mountain Home in the southern Urals, or a town house in Naples...its a large planet and plenty of personal options for the non-conformist.
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Old 07-22-2007, 01:45 PM   #30
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Would I retire if I had health insurance? Nope, I still need more in my nest egg. But if I had the required nest egg I certainly would not delay retirement because of lacking Health insurance.

PS- I exercise daily - IMHO that is the best health insurance available! Get off yer butt and do something physical!!!

PSS - My favorite exercise to lose weight is the 'push away' - I simply push the plate away!!! Works like a charm....
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Old 07-22-2007, 04:49 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
ANNNNYHOW...to get back to the original topic, I think that most people who have a paid off house, healthcare covered, and at least 25-30k in annual cash flow can take a run at retirement.
I think so, too!! I am planning to ER with a paid off house, no debts, healthcare covered, and 35-38K/year. I would probably ER on less, but I have to wait until then for the health coverage to kick in anyway.

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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Without the healthcare coverage, you're too exposed. A major illness/injury 5 or more years into your ER when your job skills are a bit eroded could turn your life into a pretty bad situation.
So, with a paid off house, at least 25-30K in annual cash flow, and enough to pay for a high deductible health insurance policy, can someone retire? I am not in that situation but if I were, it would worry me that the cost of the policy might increase drastically as I got older, beyond my ability to pay.
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Old 07-22-2007, 05:15 PM   #32
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Alex, taking care of yourself is the best thing you can do, however health insurance also covered my husband who fell on the ice through no fault of his own and herniated a disc as well as his good friend who had pancreatic cancer. His friend ran marathons and was about in as good shape as anyone could be before he was diagnosed after a 30 lb weight loss one month, then he woke up yellow one day.

things happen beyond your control. I would be afraid not to have health insurance- too scary for me. It would be the one thing that might make me continue to work or go back.
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Old 07-22-2007, 06:17 PM   #33
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Alex, taking care of yourself is the best thing you can do, however health insurance also covered my husband who fell on the ice through no fault of his own and herniated a disc as well as his good friend who had pancreatic cancer. His friend ran marathons and was about in as good shape as anyone could be before he was diagnosed after a 30 lb weight loss one month, then he woke up yellow one day.

things happen beyond your control. I would be afraid not to have health insurance- too scary for me. It would be the one thing that might make me continue to work or go back.
I hear you. Stuff happens that you cannot plan for. Of course, given the choice, I'd rather have insurance any day. But you can always get a catastrophic policy with a 5k or 10k deductible for a pretty reasonable annual cost, can't you? That would make me feel pretty comfortable.
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Old 07-22-2007, 11:24 PM   #34
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Alex:In NY I checked and for a major medical it would run us about $1000 per month. We are guaranteed in NY to have access to medical insurance, but you have to have the money. The major medical would not cover MD visits and with the conditions I mentioned it would be quite a financial burden. And when you went to the MD you would not have the clout that an insurer would have to negotiate rates. This issue is very dear to my heart, my friend with pancreatic cancer did not want to prolonge his life but did not want to be in the excruciating pain this cancer causes and also did not want to leave his wife and children destitute. He died a death that was at least painless but it was very expensive and he did not have life prolonging measures. thankfully he had good insurance. We miss him everyday.
As far as my husband goes, to pay for the MRI, injections, medications and office visits would have set us back if we were living on a limited budget. And the visit to the surgeon (best in the area) as well as the other costs could have very well sent a normal person back to work.
I forgot to mention he also has malignant melanoma and has had several surgeries. All of these medical conditions are through no fault of our own. Just living life.
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Old 07-23-2007, 08:24 AM   #35
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Yeah, a 10k deductible plan sounds good until you have to spend that every year if you land in bad health... Still, even if you had to live on a limited budget while you were sick, isnt that still better than having to go to work?
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Old 07-23-2007, 09:58 AM   #36
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i talked to a friend of a family from CANADA and i am started to think National Health Care in the US is NOT gonna work either.

She told me the corruption, abuse, misuse, ... are unbelievable. For example, everyone REFUSED to buy of-the-shelf pills like tylenol, advid... why, just because if they go to the doctor they get it prescribe and for free. she also mentioned that a headache, a stupid cough people would go the emergency room, again free...

don't know the details but i can imagine the abuse going on there, also she mentioned doctor there prescribed drugs to patients that are not really sick then these people take the drugs and send it to someone else for a fee or for free...

bla, bla,... i am just worry about health insurance caused i heard number 2 bankruptcy in the US is related to illness.

enuff
Your friend is shooting you a line.

If a drug is available OTC, doctors cannot prescribe it and have it paid by available plans.

Been there and tried it.
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:11 AM   #37
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Your friend is shooting you a line.

If a drug is available OTC, doctors cannot prescribe it and have it paid by available plans.

Been there and tried it.

But they can request a prescription that is NOT OTC that does the same thing... heard about it when I was in UK...

Also heard people trying to do it here when Claritin became OTC as it was a lot more expensive than when it was a prescription...
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:15 PM   #38
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Your friend is shooting you a line.
I loathe exaggerations as much as generalizations based on a few specific cases. It's hard to avoid pessimistics and whiners, they are everywhere.
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:15 PM   #39
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Alex:In NY I checked and for a major medical it would run us about $1000 per month. We are guaranteed in NY to have access to medical insurance, but you have to have the money. The major medical would not cover MD visits and with the conditions I mentioned it would be quite a financial burden. And when you went to the MD you would not have the clout that an insurer would have to negotiate rates. This issue is very dear to my heart, my friend with pancreatic cancer did not want to prolonge his life but did not want to be in the excruciating pain this cancer causes and also did not want to leave his wife and children destitute. He died a death that was at least painless but it was very expensive and he did not have life prolonging measures. thankfully he had good insurance. We miss him everyday.
As far as my husband goes, to pay for the MRI, injections, medications and office visits would have set us back if we were living on a limited budget. And the visit to the surgeon (best in the area) as well as the other costs could have very well sent a normal person back to work.
I forgot to mention he also has malignant melanoma and has had several surgeries. All of these medical conditions are through no fault of our own. Just living life.
I am sorry for your loss. My mother died of pancreatic cancer back in 1982.

I recommend that you add an additional 250-300K of assets to cover the cost of insurance before you retire. That will produce an extra $1,000 per month of income. In your specific case it probably makes sense to work a few extra years.
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:20 AM   #40
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Hai,

I am Vino. I am Newbie to here.

Hello guys, Im from ........., I just turned 29 last April and my health insurance has been cancelled, I got a physical to check things out before then and my alt and ast liver enzyms were up so I got a ultrasound of my liver, nothing found.. got another blood test a couple days later and they were normal, then I turned 29 and my insurance cancelled..
But recently, I have been having this pain in my upper middle back down through my right side, it hurts when I stretch out and it hurts when I take deep breaths, the pain on a scale of 1-10 is about an 8 when I take deep breaths and about a 7 when I stretch the wrong way. I have some
trouble swallowing too.. I am concern because if something happens to me my life is not insured. I have been surfing the net for good health insurance, i came into Insurancepaylite, has anyone tried online insurance? how effective is the online quote system? can i depend my money on these?

Thanks in Advance
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