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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-04-2006, 08:59 PM   #21
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

"life should begin with age and its privileges and accumulations, and end with youth and its capacity to splendidly enjoy such advantages." ~~ mark twain - letter to edward kimmitt 1901
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-04-2006, 09:39 PM   #22
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Dood
And I should also apologize to Chris, who started this thread -- sorry for the threadjack!
No problem. Easier to read, than how I am about to explode on the side of the mountain.

As far ERing in your 20's. I think it's more about giving yourself options. Work, esp. for oneself, can be fun... if you don't need it. Most here get out, try to, of what they are doing because they are "owned" by what they do. If you can free yourself up where you have the option not to work, you will find yourself enjoying what you choose to do.

If you have enough set asisde to keep you in your basic needs, you open yourself up to more opportunities. Rewarding work doesn't pay well. Work that feels meaningful, is what most do as volunteer work when they retire.
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-04-2006, 09:50 PM   #23
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Hey, I retired at 41, and I don't consider that any closer than a decade to "middle age"!!
God willing and the creek don't rise, I hope to copy Nords. *I am 39 now if we can manage a few key moves on the asset side without screwing them up or getting slammed by taxes have some luck on our side (and advice for the folks here) and be an extreme saver for the next two years then the wife and I will be wearing those nylon checkered golf pants and hanging around the shuffel board court for the next fourty years.

But that took a lot of determination and luck on both our parts with begining to plan early retirement the second day we started working. *I think we were savants at realizing work sucks and that we would rather be not working all things being equal. It has been my goal to retire at 45 since I was 25.

That said I think anyone who can retire securely before 62.5 *(I think that SSA's minimum retirement age for someone my age) is doing darn good and quite frankly someone who can retire financially secure will be much better off than most Americans should will be reaching 65 over the next 20 years.

Lets face it retire in your 20's or 30's would have been great but it requires either Rich parents or relatives, a platinum album, dot com business or some other way to make a fairly huge amount of money really fast. * But assuming Grandpa kicks the bucket and leaves you 2 million and you can live on say $80,000 per year than I say "hell yea" retire at 18 and move to Thailand and live it up. *In fact if grand pa had half a brain he would require it in order for you to get the money

Unfortunately for me Grandpa left me a very fine crystall dish and $200.

I good old dad, while one heck of a guy decided to have 9 kids and 20 some grand kids so I am not counting on too much from him other than his good old Irish thrifty ness
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-04-2006, 10:11 PM   #24
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Chris -

Like ESRBob wrote, it may be OK to temporarily enjoy a SWR higher than 4% but remember the whole reversion to the mean concept.

Many posts ago (and I am working off memory) I believe Ha wrote about pyschology and progress - starting with a low SWR and increasing it over time is a much more pleasant experience than doing the opposite. We, as humans, like to feel as though we are moving in the right direction and making progress in our lives.

Let me tell you about my 2 year graduate school experience and compare it to what could happen. I was making decent money prior to grad school - read I had enough to cover my bills and save. I was able to take vacations and buy a few toys here and there. I left for grad school in great financial shape. Comfortable but not rich.

After 2 years of racking up school loans, not working and seeing my 'liquid' or non-retirement assets disappear, it really is difficult to accept the fact that I have gone backwards and I would hate to see someone else to experience the same. I underestimated all of the "other" expenses in life and it came back to bite me in the ass. Trust me, it can happen. My golden ticket (not really all that golden ), however, is that I am young and I can go back to work. At some point, many years down the road, you may realize you can't. I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-04-2006, 10:42 PM   #25
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Wild,

I understand starting with a low SWR and increasing it over time feels a whole lot better than the opposite, but my circumstance, at this time doesn't allow it. I have been in a declining earning cycle for about 5 years. I realize going out early the monies will decrease still more. It's just the nature os the beast. IF I keep working another 10 years, the retirement monies may/maynot be much more , inflation adjusted, than what I can get now. The only real kicker would be the 401k. The other option is that the retirement may not be there in 10 years or at best only partialy there.

So I can leave now with a lump, maybe get a "bridge job" till I feel comfortable enough to stop work altogether... or..Take the lump and ease into a SWR over a few years, whatever it may be at the time... Or continue with a numbing job that will give me some current finacial stability, (read month to month), and hope things don't get lost, ie the pension.

My head is in the right spot about not progressing. Not going to happen. I have worked through that allready. It's losng 10 years of a life along with a pension that scares me the most. SO in away going for a higher withdrawl rate in the first few years, may be a whole lot better than not being able to withdraw anything at all. Dealing with the devil here.

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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-05-2006, 12:05 AM   #26
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Sometimes things change.

I remember reading Andrew Tobias' first book where he talked about how expenses would fall off after one had bought the furniture and the appliances the first time. I wasn't very old at the time, but I remember thinking, "This guy has never been married!" Turns out Andy is gay. (But, I was right!)

Nevertheless, once upon a time my expenses were very low, too. I had an old car and everything I owned was in a dufflebag in the trunk. Things are a lot different today. A wife and two kids and several houses later, the situation is different.

Just consider.

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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-05-2006, 07:49 AM   #27
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Cool Dood - just find a wealthy woman - then you can retire as long as she "keeps" you.*

Another hint - raising children is expensive. I suspect many couples could have retired a decade earlier if they hadn't raised children. Just a consideration.....

I retired at 39.* It's extremely rare to meet a retiree in their 40s.* 40s is truly early by any standard.*

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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-05-2006, 08:13 AM   #28
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Heck with a wealthy woman...all you need is one with a j-o-b, so you can quit and become a gigolo like a lot of us...
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-05-2006, 09:19 AM   #29
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris24
... anyone doing it?

For this board that would be, taking a withdrawl rate greater that 4%.

Curious to here if anyone would be satisfied with a 80 to 90% success rate from FIRE. I think even Berntsien wrote, trying to do better than a 90% success rate may be folly. (I think it was in one of his quarterly reports).

I enjoy the disscusion here, and have learned alot. I have read all the books, .. But ... it's all abit too conservitive for me.

I'll have a good lump by the end of this year, and by golly I plan to spend some. I may even try 7% for the first few years and adjust from there. Until I find where I am comfortable with things. Call me wild and crazy if you want. I don't want to be "frozen" in the transition, ~2 years, by feeling I am failling if I go over 4%. I'm disciplined to a point, and not risk adverse.

Sometimes life is just to short to worry about if I have enough money for depends 30 years from now.

Chris, best of luck, and I do hope you update us over time as to how things are going. I would think that what you want to do, take out some extra at the beginning of retirement, would be pretty common -- to buy the RV, take that fabulous cruise, pay off the mortgage or whatever. It sounds like you're flexible enough to adjust to what happens as time goes by, which I believe is the most important thing.

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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-06-2006, 10:03 AM   #30
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick2
To friends and relatives - I'm even more conservative tossing in the Norwegian widow for defense as well as Bogle/De Gaul.
Hi Mick - just a quick question - what is this "Norwegian Widow" thing? I seem to remember coming across it in a few posts (can't remember if they're all your posts or not) and never knew what the heck it meant. I would google it, but I'm at work and afraid that I'd pull up some porn sites or something ... actually, even at home I'd be afraid of what I might find on a site dedicated to Norwegian widows

Just thought I'd ask. The dryer sheets I get. Maybe the Norwegian Widow is the next level of enlightenment that one must reach on the forum ...
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-06-2006, 10:17 AM   #31
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Nowegian widow:

Taken narrowly - own dividend paying stocks.

Taken broadly - like me, keep track of the current yield of your ER portfolio - this is the bottom line 'hard times' or adverse market periods. The idea is not to be forced to sell what you may not want to part with in down markets.

Dividend strategies, dividend and income funds, balance index funds, etc roughly fall into this catagory.

Old school - in days of yore - many funds offered the option of taking div/interest and reinvesting cap gains.

MPT, slice and dice is popular now.

BTY - they are not mutually exclusive depending on the portfolio construction.

The Norwegian widow waited by the mailbox for her deceased husbands stock dividend checks. In 1948 - Mrs Wright(Andersen) in my neighborhood.

heh heh heh
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-06-2006, 11:19 AM   #32
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick
The Norwegian widow waited by the mailbox for her deceased husbands stock dividend checks. In 1948 - Mrs Wright(Andersen) in my neighborhood.

heh heh heh
Thanks for the explanation, Mick ... maybe the Norwegian Widow will catch on and years from now people will be tossing around the term inspired by little Mrs. Wright all those years ago
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-06-2006, 11:36 AM   #33
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Years later - ?1960's there was an article in the Seattle or Portland paper(?which?) that used the term to describe a dividend strategy.
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-06-2006, 11:43 AM   #34
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick

The Norwegian widow waited by the mailbox for her deceased husbands stock dividend checks. In 1948 - Mrs Wright(Andersen) in my neighborhood.

heh heh heh
Uncle Mick, I know an 80 year old never married mostly Irish woman, Miss Sheehan, who does the same thing in 2006. She worked for the old monopoly Bell in the beginning, Verizon is the name on some of the things.... Still edgy the day before the checks come, to the bank pronto after.... None of my business but it's quite a sight to behold. I agree with you. It's VERY impressionable.

But the impression it's making is I'm thinking I don't ever want to be so caught up in waiting. Just going to do that electronic thing when the need is there, and go hike in the mountains. Life is good.
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-06-2006, 12:16 PM   #35
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_The_Gypsy
I remember reading Andrew Tobias' first book where he talked about how expenses would fall off after one had bought the furniture and the appliances the first time.* I wasn't very old at the time, but I remember thinking, "This guy has never been married!"* Turns out Andy is gay.* (But, I was right!)
reason #347 why it's good to be gay: you can have kids & a minivan and pay their way thru college, or you can have that 2-seater, 300-hp convertible you've wanted since you were kid. zoom zoom.
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-06-2006, 12:55 PM   #36
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick
Years later - ?1960's there was an article in the Seattle or Portland paper(?which?) that used the term to describe a dividend strategy.
Ah OK ... I thought it was your own invention. Guess I just missed that one.
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-06-2006, 02:32 PM   #37
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

My variation of the Norwegian widow...the Italian widow?

- For basic expenses, $3000+/month in dividends and interest. Like clockwork (maybe that's the Swiss widower-).
- For those nice-to-haves, tap the cap gains spigot as needed, and as the market (or at least my port) turns in a given year.
- Open a nice chianti*
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-08-2006, 08:23 AM   #38
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

I once read somewhere that, as a rule of thumb, having children doubled your cost of living.
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-08-2006, 03:04 PM   #39
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris24
... anyone doing it?

For this board that would be, taking a withdrawl rate greater that 4%.

Curious to here if anyone would be satisfied with a 80 to 90% success rate from FIRE. I think even Berntsien wrote, trying to do better than a 90% success rate may be folly. (I think it was in one of his quarterly reports).

I might try it but I have back up plans. If I run out it will be when I am very old and I will get a reverse mortgage. If I see it coming I will cut back on spending or find other income. I won't need more than 4% so it will be optional to take more. Or I could sell my home and buy a cheaper one. Inflation is going make prices higher in your later years so you can't spend it all, you need to let it grow. My gas bill for one motnh is more than I earned in two week 40 years ago. What do you think it will cost for heat in 40 more years? If you retire young you may have more than 40 years. My grandmother retired at 57 and is now 98, she was still saving for her old age in her 70's and 80's. just before she was 97 she broke her leg and ended up in a hospital then nursing home now in assisted living for a year. She is spending money now to live in a nice assisted living home. They might not have accepted her if she didn't have money, but will keep her if she runs out and goes on medicaid. Except for the leg she is in good health but she lost weight living alone and didn't get strong enough to walk after a few weeks of broken leg. Now she is gaining weight so might get stronger but her mind is week and she doesn't want to be alone so will stay in assisted living.
I don't want to be broke at her age when you can't land a job to make end meet. She was offered a job at 89 as a waitress by her old boss but he was probably kidding.
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Re: Xtreme ER ..
Old 04-08-2006, 07:25 PM   #40
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Re: Xtreme ER ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris24
Sometimes life is just to short to worry about if I have enough money for depends 30 years from now.
Sometimes life can be fairly long. I'm taking my Dad out tomorrow for his 95th birthday.
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