Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-15-2010, 08:22 AM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigNick View Post
Oh puz-leeze. It's an Op-Ed piece. What do you expect?
I am not sure if you are addressing me or someone else. If me, I refer you to the thread title.

However, I am not afraid to assess trends and structural strengths and weaknesses. I do not think he is saying that China is more pleasant then the US, though perhaps it is less different than we Americans are inclined to believe. No doubt the lands of the Goths and Visigoths were less pleasant than Imperial Rome. Still, Rome fell.

I thought the two quotes he used to introduce his piece were pretty good, didn't you?
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-15-2010, 09:30 AM   #22
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: France
Posts: 1,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I thought the two quotes he used to introduce his piece were pretty good, didn't you?
In a sophomore kind of a way... and only if he's prepared to say what he would have in place of democracy. I'm going to guess that it would involve some form of recognition that he is right and everyone else is wrong. I'll stick to democracy, thanks.

What I presume he wanted to attack was state interventionism, whether practised by governments of parties with the word "Socialist" in their name or not (the vast majority of the modern French and Italian welfare states having been constructed by governments which are notionally right of centre and certainly didn't go round quoting watered-down Marxist rhetoric to justify their stance). I think we can all agree that government should not be running lunch provision or the building materials industry.
__________________

__________________
Age 56, retired July 1, 2012; DW is 60 and working for 2 more years. Current portfolio is 2000K split 50 stocks/20 bonds/30 cash. Renting house, no debts.
BigNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 10:11 PM   #23
Recycles dryer sheets
Tigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
I stumbled upon another disturbing piece like that.

There are "pogroms against bankers" and taxes are too high, therefore "the political equality of the citizen must be ended"?! Who is paying these guys?

Hobson - Summer 2010 - Global Custodian
__________________
Tigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 10:31 PM   #24
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,398
It is true that for all the flaws of democracy, it is difficult to find another political system to replace it.

For democracy to work, one needs an "enlightened" populace. Else, it does not work.

I believe the Communists rose to power on the back of the destitute people who felt they had no way out, that ruling out personal ownership of properties and belongings would let them share in the wealth of the bourgeoisie class that was perhaps unfairly denied them. They even believed in the false charity of the mantra "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Yes, the Communists could also claim to be democratic, as they at one time had the support of the majority of their people.

We all know how that ended up.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 11:39 PM   #25
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,457
I didn't really get the point of the article. But I sure enjoyed BigNick's rejoinder.

I guess Haha is waiting for the end of civilization as we know it (this time - as there have been several such ends in human history).

Haha - you are older than me. Sure I believe our current modern civilization will end some day - and maybe even within the next 100 years. But somehow I don't expect it to occur within my lifetime - or if it does, I'll be too old to care. Such major changes take time.

Audrey

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigNick View Post
Oh puz-leeze. It's an Op-Ed piece. What do you expect?

It starts with a complete red herring: "Democracies produced Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy". Well, up to a point: I'm not quite sure how democracy produced Mussolini's "March on Rome". And democracies got together to destroy both of those, once the US proved Churchill right in his classic statement "One can always rely on the Americans to do the right thing, after having exhausted all other possibilities" )

Then it continues in the same scattergun vein, trying to Scare The Whole World by extrapolating the specific economic problems of one country. There's even the obligatory namecheck of Greece as "birthplace of Athenian democracy", as if there's been some uninterrupted Aristotelian regime in place for 3000 years. This is just lazy polemical journalism as usual.

Another example: "Already, hundreds of thousands of middle-class people have thronged the streets of Paris and Rome, of Milan and Sarajevo, of Reykjavik and Bucharest (where demonstrators stormed the presidential palace, an insurgent act that evokes the spectre of revolution).". Whoa. Europe must be on fire, right? Middle-class people in the streets in their hundreds of thousands? Must be some other Europe than the one I live in. The number of people "storming the presidential palace" in Bucharest in June was, er, 600, who incidentally failed to storm the palace. The people in Reykjavik were protesting about the banks stealing all their money, and proceeded to vote in the Social Democratic (ie, left of centre) party. And... Sarajevo? Who? When?

And a web site calling itself "World Socialists" claiming that there is rage ahead? Wow. Next you'll be telling us that the Tea Party doesn't like Obama, or that the Pope isn't big on Methodism. Never mind that "middle-class people" anywhere don't tend to like socialism. Just throw the mud. Democracy, socialism, government employees. He missed out immigrants, for some reason.

I notice that he also fails to propose any alternative. It reminds me of those people who say that the world will definitely end in 18 months and then you discover that they hold government bonds and just increased their IRA contributions.

It's particular ironic to find it in a Canadian publication. Canada was a democracy last time I checked, and they seem to be doing just fine right now on the public debt and bank bailout fronts.
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 07:21 AM   #26
Moderator
Sarah in SC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 13,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
I didn't really get the point of the article. But I sure enjoyed BigNick's rejoinder.

I guess Haha is waiting for the end of civilization as we know it (this time - as there have been several such ends in human history).

Haha - you are older than me. Sure I believe our current modern civilization will end some day - and maybe even within the next 100 years. But somehow I don't expect it to occur within my lifetime - or if it does, I'll be too old to care. Such major changes take time.

Audrey
Audrey, I share your basic philosophy and have a hard time managing a whole lot of hand-wringing for what may come to pass after I, er, pass. Maybe my childfree status makes me more indifferent to the future, but it is hard for me to generate fears for future generations that might not happen.
__________________
“One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching.”
Gerard Arthur Way

Sarah in SC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 08:26 AM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah in SC View Post
Audrey, I share your basic philosophy and have a hard time managing a whole lot of hand-wringing for what may come to pass after I, er, pass. Maybe my childfree status makes me more indifferent to the future, but it is hard for me to generate fears for future generations that might not happen.
I also have no children, so maybe that makes a big difference.

Audrey
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 11:20 AM   #28
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Doesn't every generation worry about the next? Meanwhile, technology and quality of life continues to improve with every successive generation, regardless of gloom and doom pundits.
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 12:10 PM   #29
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Doesn't every generation worry about the next? Meanwhile, technology and quality of life continues to improve with every successive generation, regardless of gloom and doom pundits.
No matter how good it is now, we always look back on the past as "the good old days". The good old days weren't really as good as we think!
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 12:27 PM   #30
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
I guess the consensus is everything is as good as it can get and getting better all the time. So shut up and get with the program. (In practice that seems to mean squirrel away as much money as one can, and then withdraw from anything other than tinkering with the details of cheap living and consumer spending and doing enough housework to keep whoever is boss happy.

Might as well close up history departments and the rest of non-technical universities, and be done with this idle speculation. And get rid of opinion pieces, and magazines like Foreigh Affairs.

I am somewhat amazed by the the "après moi, le déluge" sentiment. I thought that a concern for well being that went beyond one's own self and time was accepted as a virtue, but not in these parts apparently.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 12:33 PM   #31
Moderator
Sarah in SC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 13,456
On the contrary, I think it just means that, at least for me, that I recognize the limits of my ability to change the world. Better to improve my own circumstances and do what I can individually (through volunteer work, charity, what-have-you) to make a difference in the here and now.

And I don't do any housework to speak of, Ha.
__________________
“One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching.”
Gerard Arthur Way

Sarah in SC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 12:39 PM   #32
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
There is always room for further improvement; but as a rule things do improve from generation to generation. My standard of living is better than my parents; their standard of living was better than my grandparents. Gloom and doom prophecies have been around forever; remember that the world was coming to an end on at midnight on Dec 31st, 1999. Or, that the spaceship hiding behind the comet Kahoutek was going to take away everyone who drank the special kool-aid. I'm not advocating that we ignore every warning sign out there; I do believe there will be consequences for successive generations from the lack of fiscal restraint in our government today, today, for example. Will it be painful? Maybe. Will they figure it out? Absolutely. But I'm not going to hide under my bed worrying about it in the meantime. I've always been a glass-half-full man, myself. But, maybe that's just me.
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 12:44 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
I guess the consensus is everything is as good as it can get and getting better all the time. So shut up and get with the program. (In practice that seems to mean squirrel away as much money as one can, and then withdraw from anything other than tinkering with the details of cheap living and consumer spending and doing enough housework to keep whoever is boss happy.

Might as well close up history departments and the rest of non-technical universities, and be done with this idle speculation. And get rid of opinion pieces, and magazines like Foreign Affairs.

I am somewhat amazed by the "après moi, le déluge" sentiment. I thought that a concern for well being that went beyond one's own self and time was accepted as a virtue, but not in these parts apparently. But one little historical detail might question someone's confidence that even if difficulty did arrive, it would be a very long time coming. In the thirties, when much of Europe was exploring or jumping into fascist statism we in America were getting close to various statist solutions, mostly of the leftward leaning variety. So how many years elapsed between the roaring twenties and the severe challenges of the 30s, even here in America?

While I appreciate Audrey giving me an age pass- well you will surely not be around to see any of this- I think that even my feeble body might be able to keep going long enough for some play-out using timetables from recent history.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 12:50 PM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,075
Is it just me or is there an echo in here?
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 12:53 PM   #35
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Is it just me or is there an echo in here?
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 03:37 PM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I am somewhat amazed by the "après moi, le déluge" sentiment. I thought that a concern for well being that went beyond one's own self and time was accepted as a virtue, but not in these parts apparently. But one little historical detail might question someone's confidence that even if difficulty did arrive, it would be a very long time coming. In the thirties, when much of Europe was exploring or jumping into fascist statism we in America were getting close to various statist solutions, mostly of the leftward leaning variety. So how many years elapsed between the roaring twenties and the severe challenges of the 30s, even here in America?

While I appreciate Audrey giving me an age pass- well you will surely not be around to see any of this- I think that even my feeble body might be able to keep going long enough for some play-out using timetables from recent history.
Well yes, I definitely have an attitude of if I can't do anything about it, or I'm not willing to devote my life to fighting it, I'm not going to worry about it. I have my own life to live, and my efforts are best focused within my own small sphere of influence - with my friends and family and local community.

Personally, I really enjoy nature and we all know that unspoiled natural areas have been shrinking forever. I get involved here and there to help save tiny pieces, but there is not a whole lot I can do about the big picture. Every decade that goes by more stuff disappears. If you think about it long enough, you can get really depressed. I guess I decided a while ago to quit feeling depressed about it. I'll go see and appreciate what I can during my lifetime.

And in the first 5 years of my life we had the Cuban Missile Crisis and President Kennedy's assassination. The rest of that decade (60s) and the next weren't that great either. It's just really hard for me to get bent out of shape with todays problems when I grew up with the Cold War, Vietnam, very ugly fights for Civil Rights, totalitarian regimes all over the world and Mutually Assured Destruction as the main US foreign policy.

One day the human race will be wiped off the face of the earth. Fortunately, the earth will probably continue to function and other forms of life persist. It really doesn't bother me that the human race might disappear one day.

Audrey

P.S. I'm busy watching a major regional flood in my backyard, and our plumbing project is not going that smoothly either. So it's a little hard for me sometimes to pay attention to the bigger world.
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 03:43 PM   #37
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
One day the human race will be wiped off the face of the earth. Fortunately, the earth will probably continue to function and other forms of life persist. It really doesn't bother me that the human race might disappear one day.
Audrey
Based on the geologic record, cockroaches and trolls will probably survive.
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 03:45 PM   #38
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Based on the geologic record, cockroaches and trolls will probably survive.
And sharks - even though they are threatened now.

Audrey
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 03:49 PM   #39
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Onward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
as a rule things do improve from generation to generation
Salutations. This is Onward's avatar. He is off idling somewhere, but I felt compelled to proffer my humble observations in his stead:

Quote:
As with our colleges, so with a hundred "modern improvements"; there is an illusion about them; there is not always a positive advance. . . . Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end.
__________________
And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know.
Onward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 04:01 PM   #40
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I guess the consensus is everything is as good as it can get and getting better all the time. So shut up and get with the program. (In practice that seems to mean squirrel away as much money as one can, and then withdraw from anything other than tinkering with the details of cheap living and consumer spending and doing enough housework to keep whoever is boss happy.

Might as well close up history departments and the rest of non-technical universities, and be done with this idle speculation. And get rid of opinion pieces, and magazines like Foreign Affairs.

I am somewhat amazed by the "après moi, le déluge" sentiment. I thought that a concern for well being that went beyond one's own self and time was accepted as a virtue, but not in these parts apparently. But one little historical detail might question someone's confidence that even if difficulty did arrive, it would be a very long time coming. In the thirties, when much of Europe was exploring or jumping into fascist statism we in America were getting close to various statist solutions, mostly of the leftward leaning variety. So how many years elapsed between the roaring twenties and the severe challenges of the 30s, even here in America?

While I appreciate Audrey giving me an age pass- well you will surely not be around to see any of this- I think that even my feeble body might be able to keep going long enough for some play-out using timetables from recent history.

Ha
Ha,

I did not read the article... so only commenting on your comment...

I do not think that everything is 'as good as it can get'... nor would I say shut up and get with the program... but gloom and doom has been out there forever... and every once in awhile something really bad happens..

But take my mom.. she is 90... born just after WWI... it was not a great time then... but improved... she was a young teen during the great depression... but worked hard and survived... She lived through the food rationing of WWII and the problems then... she lived through the rip roaring 50s and had 5 more kids (total of 6)... she lived through the down 60s... poor all the time... Vietnam came and went... with only 1 BIL in harms way... the other that was old enough was a clerk state side... she lived through the high inflation... or should I say stagflation in the 70s... her husband died in 1980... but they had finally saved some money to invest... she did well in the 80s and 90s... I had her diversified during the tech bubble, so not as bad a thing to her... this last one has kind of passed her by as she is not tapping her savings right now... she is happy...


And that is my point... a long life of ups and downs... and some downs where there was no food to eat... this down will go away in my lifetime (at least I hope I continue to live!!!)... and life will be a bowl of cherries again... and later in my life.... we will have another downturn with hand wringing and doom and gloom... so that is why I do not worry to much about the state we are in... it will be fixed when enough of the people want it changed.... I for one want it changed NOW... but even if it is not, I will be happy in my life... If I lose everything... I will find a way to keep alive and... hopefully be happy....
__________________

__________________
Texas Proud is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
faithful nation gets Jesus wrong sgeeeee Other topics 14 08-18-2005 07:29 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:13 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.