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8 months in Germany - My impressions
Old 07-23-2009, 05:39 PM   #1
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8 months in Germany - My impressions

Well, our time in Germany has come to an end and we're heading back home to Estonia. We came here as my wife was accepted to finish up her university degree at a college here and we thought it would be a fun experience and look good on her CV to boot.

Germany is expensive when compared to Estonia, but not so bad or similar when compared to many parts of the U.S. It really didn't cost us personally during our time here as we're both EU citizens and as such gets some perks in other member countries.

The University system in the German state we're in charges €500 per semester, but as EU citizens with a kid, my wife was admitted tuition free. We also were able to rent out our apartment in Tallinn which almost (not quite but close) covered our rent in this smaller German town. Water and electricity rates are much higher in Germany, so that cost was (will be, as we don't have final bills yet) much higher.

We were able to switch from the Estonian state medical system to the German state system while we were here (thanks EU!) and used it twice (once for wife and once for daughter). Health insurance, even public, can be rather expensive in Germany and it's based on income (I think offhand it's 15%) however you can't be turned away. There are ways to fall through the cracks however as Germany has a dual public/private system (it actually encourages private insurance to ease costs on the public). But in certain circumstances one can get caught between the two and despite mandatory coverage, can be kinda screwed (though you would never be turned away for emergency medical treatment.)

The good part about the public medical is if only one person is working, their insurance covers the whole family. But if two people are working, they both have to have their own coverage. We, however, got the student rate for my wife, which was €50 per month and covered all of us, since I'm ER'd and don't work. So that was a good deal for us, but if my wife worked in Germany, it would be far more expensive for our family than what we would pay in Estonia (which is only for me as the wife and kid are covered cost free and I pay voluntarily into the Estonian system for coverage). The care in our town was very good though and can't fault it for anything. I have read that care overall is better in wealther areas than poorer areas and we were in a small, but fairly wealthy town, so that may play into it. The care we had was for relatively minor stuff, so I couldn't comment how extended inpatient treatment might be.

Food is pretty much comprable to Estonia, but it did cost us more while here. Reason being in Estonia, almost everyone has a relative with a farm and gets tons of free food over the growing season, including us. That or people head to the countless farmers markets everywhere. So in summer, we pay very little for food and like most Estonians consume mostly fresh vegetables, berries and mushrooms over the summer months with some goat/pork/chicken meat thrown in. Here in Germany, despite being a rural area, not too much fresh goodies and most things need to be store purchased which made food for 3 our biggest expense while here.

Some other things that would have been expensive had we stayed long term are things like the car tax. Germany has one and you pay, as I understand it, for the size of engine your vehicle has. That's why most Germans drive small cars, not because they want to, but because it's cheaper to do so. Germans have a love of cars as much as or more than Americans, so they don't drive beaters cause they want to. Estonia has no annual car tax, so that's a big savings (though there is a strict emissions test in Estonia that needs to be passed).

Like in the US, most things in Germany are handled by each individual state with federal law trumping those. Garbage in our area is collected under taxes (free) for paper/plastic, but hazardous waste (diapers, etc) are paid by the user separately. For our small diaper can it's €68 annually. In Estonia it's all paid via tax, no separate fee. Also, in Germany, if you have large items or something not taken normally, you either have to pay to have it removed or you have to wait for the annual "other" trash removal to put it on the curb. It's illegal to put something on the sidewalk with a "free" sign on it. No garage sales either unless regulated by your area. In Estonia, I can put something on the sidewalk or along the road or have a garage sale or whatever I want.

Germans, at least in my town, are sticklers for the rules. If you're not doing something by the book, they'll let you know. Estonia is a live and let live kind of place. Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. That has it's own upside and downfalls, but I prefer it to a butting into my business all the time society. Our town in Germany is like the HOA I lived under in Florida. Maybe not as bad as that, cause it was the New Yorkers hassling the good people there.

The people here are mildly more friendly than Estonia, but not enough to make a difference. The only thing here (we've been in the state of Baden-Württemberg) that I did really love was the weather. This town in particular (it's a river valley) has the best freaking weather of any place I have lived since my childhood home. The sun (no lie) comes virtually every day of the year, for at least a couple hours. Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall. I can count on one hand the days we've lived here over 8 months that we didn't see the sun and have fingers left over.

I wanted to write a short bit on German taxes, though they don't effect us. If you're married with kids, your tax burden, depending, isn't much higher than you'd probably pay in the US. But, if when you're young and single you pay a lot! It's sort of a tax system where the young and healthy pay the most, the old and poor the least and everyone in between based your circumstance. So it's in ones best interest to marry and pop out kids as soon as possible as everythings is way cheaper then.

Estonia has a flat tax for everyone, much better system, easier and more transparent. Filing is simple, very few things can be deducted (school costs can for example.)

Germany compared to Estonia is a bureaucratic nightmare. It's still a paperwork, rubber stamp society circa 1950 USA. Literally, they still use ink and rubber stamps to press against documents to make them official! German efficiency these days is both an oxymoron and a myth.

Estonia, to it's credit, is incredibly efficient and virtually everything can be done online, all documents signed digitally with your ID card, etc. No one uses a rubber stamp for anything except humour.

As a couple with a young daughter we also were not too thrilled with the German school system, which basically at grade 4 decides whether or not you're smart enough to go to college. Homeschooling in Germany is strictly illegal and your kids will be taken away if their not sent to school as directed. Big downside for us. Homeschooling is legal in Estonia, as it is in most European countries. Germany is an exception in this regard.

It is overall a wealthier country than Estonia so the buildings are fancier looking and the highways in better shape. It's also overpopulated and the public litter factor is much worse than when I lived here in the early 90's.
West Germans, based on my personal conversations and media, still regard Eastern Germans as foreign.

From an ER perspective, the property in Germany isn't so bad when compared to the US or Estonia's capital city of Tallinn (where we live). I could easily buy a house here for what I paid for my apartment in Tallinn. But, always a but, you pay around 10% extra in Germany on top of the real estate price for all taxes and fees. And you'd have to be a pretty savvy local to get out of any of that.

My overall impression of Germany is that it's a nice place to visit, but we wouldn't want to live here. It can work well for others though.

While I often compare Germany to Estonia, it's a no brainer for us for many reasons why Estonia is better and we're very happy there. IF, hypothetically, I had to choose between Germany and the U.S. in our situation right now today, I would rather live in the USA, but would have to choose Germany. For one simple reason...health insurance. It might not be the best in the world, but it's really good and better than the nothing I would have othewise.

I think I wrote too much but I tried to be objective, but feel free to call me out on anything, I'm happy to chat about expat life in Europe. I'm sure I left out all kind of relevant things as well. Anyone on one of those Scandinavian Cruises that stops in Tallinn is welcome to meet up with me.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:01 PM   #2
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Very interesting post, Trek! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. My wife has family in Germany, and we've idly kicked around the idea of trying to spend a year or two living there.

My friend's Mom was born in Berlin, moved to the States in her early 20's, and has now returned to northern Germany to live out her retirement. By far, her biggest complaint about being back in Germany is this:

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Originally Posted by Trek View Post
Germans, at least in my town, are sticklers for the rules. If you're not doing something by the book, they'll let you know.
I can hear her now: "Nosy, nosy, NOSY! Vhy don't zeese people mind zer own business?!?" Accompanied by much agitated flailing of limbs.

I loved the country when I visited there, particularly Bavaria. The beer didn't hurt, either. Based on your post, though, I think I'd probably rather visit than live there. Bureaucratic hassles, particularly when one isn't fluent in the language, don't sound appealing to me. The rigidness of the culture would also get old quickly, I think.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:19 PM   #3
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Trek, are you from the U.S. originally? I've looked at Estonia as a possible expat destination myself, but I've been fearful of learning a new language at my age (I do speak passable German but I learned it as a kid).

How friendly is Estonia to expats? And do you have a blog or know any good ones about expat life there?
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:24 PM   #4
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Yo, Trek!

Good to hear from you again!

I always enjoy your observations.

Cheers,

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Old 07-23-2009, 08:18 PM   #5
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Thanks for the detailed report on life in Germany. We are intending to spend part of the year in Europe once we retire as my DH has a EU passport, however must admit Germany is not one of the countries on our list.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:16 AM   #6
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Trek, are you from the U.S. originally? I've looked at Estonia as a possible expat destination myself, but I've been fearful of learning a new language at my age (I do speak passable German but I learned it as a kid).

How friendly is Estonia to expats? And do you have a blog or know any good ones about expat life there?
I'll PM you with some good Estonia info.

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Yo, Trek!

Good to hear from you again!

I always enjoy your observations.

Cheers,

Ed
Thanks Ed! Stop in sometime.

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Thanks for the detailed report on life in Germany. We are intending to spend part of the year in Europe once we retire as my DH has a EU passport, however must admit Germany is not one of the countries on our list.
Alps are beautiful and many interesting historical sites. Best to visit them and then go home.
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:49 AM   #7
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Thanks for the write-up. I lived near Munich for a few years also "on the economy". I recall the bureaucracy quite well. It was so stifling it was pathetic. But once you knew there were no exceptions to the rules, you could use them to your advantage.
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:49 AM   #8
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I would add that in general, Germany is a very safe place to live. Violent crimes are rare and that is something to consider when choosing a place to live.
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Old 07-24-2009, 07:23 AM   #9
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Excellent write up. Estonia is on my list of places I'd love to see some day.

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IF, hypothetically, I had to choose between Germany and the U.S. in our situation right now today, I would rather live in the USA, but would have to choose Germany. For one simple reason...health insurance. It might not be the best in the world, but it's really good and better than the nothing I would have othewise.
I'm curious about this statement, why couldn't you get health insurance in the US?

I had some preconceived notions about Germany that weren't always true. The Rick Steves books informed us that while you would hear lots of talking on trains, none of it would be loud, and it also told us not to put our bags on seats on a crowded train and take up a seat that someone might use. Well, we found Germans to be as loud as anyone, and not just the kids. And we say one family of 4 taking up 8 seats, including the father stretching out his bare feet on the seat across from him. And another adult couple in front of us took 4 cross seats with themselves and their bags, and when another couple asked about the seats, they told them they were taken. This was on trains in the Rhine Valley, which we found to be the least enjoyable due to the people.
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Old 07-24-2009, 07:48 AM   #10
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It's possible those weren't German nationals on that train.
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Old 07-24-2009, 08:15 AM   #11
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Excellent write up. Estonia is on my list of places I'd love to see some day.



I'm curious about this statement, why couldn't you get health insurance in the US?

I had some preconceived notions about Germany that weren't always true. The Rick Steves books informed us that while you would hear lots of talking on trains, none of it would be loud, and it also told us not to put our bags on seats on a crowded train and take up a seat that someone might use. Well, we found Germans to be as loud as anyone, and not just the kids. And we say one family of 4 taking up 8 seats, including the father stretching out his bare feet on the seat across from him. And another adult couple in front of us took 4 cross seats with themselves and their bags, and when another couple asked about the seats, they told them they were taken. This was on trains in the Rhine Valley, which we found to be the least enjoyable due to the people.
I can't get health insurance due to a pre-existing condition that is a lifelong chronic ailment. Plus, to pay health insurance for the rest of the family in the US would put an end to my ER. I originally moved overseas so I could ER.

Yes, Germans are actually loud in public. Scandinavians are quieter.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:56 AM   #12
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It's possible those weren't German nationals on that train.
Possible, but I'm pretty sure they were locals. I can't remember enough to explain why I felt that way. Maybe it was where they got on, what they were carrying, etc.
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:51 AM   #13
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Great post. It is so interesting to see your own country through the eyes of someone else.
I cannot object to your observations.

But I recall that when I am in a foreign country I notice those issues more intensely which are against my expectations (or maybe prejudice) than those who just confirm my expectations.

I hope that in total you enjoyed your stay and have met or became friends with some nice people.
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:50 AM   #14
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Thanks Trek - I love these posts that are tailored to this audience, you just don't get this from any other source. Many interesting observations, some of which I am surprised at, and many which fit in directly with my experiences working with the German branch of my former employer.

Can you expand on this statement - if I understand it correctly, it seems counter to what some are claiming:

RE: Health insurance in Germany....
Quote:
(it actually encourages private insurance to ease costs on the public)
TIA - ERD50
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:20 AM   #15
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Trek,

Great post - and sorry we didn't get a chance to meet up. As for rules - well, yes, the Germans have a saying - Ordnung muss sein - Order must be - I don't know if you took an tours of some of the cloisters/etc, but Charlemagne is the one who started that bureacratic mindset as well as rules for everthing. He would do no-notice inspections of different towns/areas to see if the were following the rules.

As for the weather - well - I don't know which part of Baden-Wurttemburg you were in, but it has been a winter-like summer here - cold and rainy a LOT! However, you are right, it is beautiful - I just got back froma 12km walk around Schloss Solitude and Barensee -very pretty.

Taxes - yes, you don't get out of them here unless you are a tourist or live here under the SOFA. As for the rubber stamps, you are so right - as well as five copies of everything and rubber stamp all of them. One needs to get into the mindset of being patient with the bureacracy when needed. For example, for us to buy gas even as militar personnel, there are several hoops to go through - as well as register one's car, etc. My husband just got his international driver's license and that was et another exercise in going to the right office/window, paying your money, getting things stamped, etc.

I had surgery on the economy here and as for bureacracy - well, combined with TRICARE and the German's let's just say I was filling out forms twice for coverage - the Swiss were much more efficient in that they just took credit cards or cash :-) Very business-like, those Swiss. Same with the car tax sticker - if you don't have it when you cross the border, you either hand them your credit card or cash and they sell you the sticker - otherwise, you don't go into their country.

As for families, yes, it is better for families - they have the kindergeld here which is basically an income redistribution system where a parent is paid to stay home to raise the children (usually the mother) - it wreaks havoc on businesses that hire women as they can't replace that person, they can only get a temp, and many of the women have a child, stay home for three years for the kinder geld and then have another child, the three year clock starts again.....a double edged sword - I like the idea of staying home for the children, but balk at the former employer being penalized for that.

The infrastructure in Germany is awesome - the bikepaths, wandern paths, highways, parks, etc, are for most part very clean and serviced well. Biking and hiking are 'civilized' in that one stays in huttes (huts) or hotels. They don't camp as much here as in the US. It makes things less rugged, which can be comforting.

Education-wise, you are right - my neighbors told me about the public education system and no home-schooling. From a historical perspective, Germany was on the forefront of many socialistic ideas beginning with 'pensions' for soldiers willing to fight for Bismarck and the Prussians - from that idea came the furtherance of the state providing for certain aspects of the populace. What I find interesting, however, is that the Germans do in general work fairly hard, yet maintain a life balance better so than many Americans. Even though they've relaxed the Sunday 'blue' laws here, most places aren't open on Sundays as that is traditionally a family day or rest day. As I read in the press about the 'de-religionizing' of Europe, I find it ironic that the customs that were originally promulgated by the religious culture in Medieval Europe are still followed albeit in a secular fashion and much more so than in the USA.

Well, enough of my opinions - if anyone has any questions about living in Germany or getting around, please feel free to PM or ask - we are here for another two years at least and it is our second time doing this.

Trek - when we get to the Baltics, we will contact you.
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:31 AM   #16
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Great post.

I hope that in total you enjoyed your stay and have met or became friends with some nice people.
We had a nice time and we're happy we came for sure. We'll be back for holidays as well as there are places we wanted to visit that we didn't have a chance to.

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Thanks Trek - I love these posts that are tailored to this audience, you just don't get this from any other source. Many interesting observations, some of which I am surprised at, and many which fit in directly with my experiences working with the German branch of my former employer.

Can you expand on this statement - if I understand it correctly, it seems counter to what some are claiming:

RE: Health insurance in Germany....

TIA - ERD50
So, Germany doesn't have socialized or national health care. The health industry isn't run by the government here, like say in the UK or Canada. It's all run by insurance companies. But there are what's known locally as "public insurers" and "private insurers" though they're all private companies. The difference is this. The "public insurers" don't underwrite and (generally) accept anyone. Also, when one family member is insured, the whole family is co-insured with them for the one price. However, they are subsidized by the government for providing this service. The "private insurers" are just like the ones in the U.S. with all the underwriting and a good choice if you're young, healthy and wealthy (there is a minimum income you must meet to qualify for private insurance) and everyone in your family must have their own separate policy.

So the more people the private insurers pick up, the less the gov't has to spend to subsidize the public insurers and the less they have to tax the public to make the subsidies possible. Maybe it's like in the States where the gov't subsidizes farmers to grow food for people to eat? Here they do that for health insurance companies so everyone can have coverage.

Not a perfect system. None is. And I don't pretend to be an expert who has studied the German system in extreme depth and detail. Just what I know from having applied for coverage here and some general reading on the subject.

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Trek - when we get to the Baltics, we will contact you.
Yup, give me shout, I'll be around.
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Old 07-25-2009, 02:33 PM   #17
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Something to add that may be of interest. Germans are VERY litigious. You don't hear so much about it as payouts aren't as dramatic as the U.S., but they'll sue each other over very small amounts. And they do so since they all carry lawyer insurance. Germans are insured for everything including lawsuits, so they're happy to use it.

I will add to the positive that they carry personally very little debt. I think the recent stat is that 1 in 10 has a credit card (the rest debit) and 60% rent their home, while the 40% that do own pay very high down payments (in most cases) that keeps their mortgage low. It also keeps them from first home ownership longer, but results in fewer foreclosures in the long run.

Germans are overall adverse to risk which would make Dave Ramsey proud. In full disclosure I love Dave Ramsey and am debt free!
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Old 07-26-2009, 04:07 AM   #18
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Interesting topic as my sister-in-law is about to take her family from Vancouver Island to Germany for the 2009 and 2010 school year. She is from Germany and lately has been giving the kids a crash course in German,their two kids are 10 and 14 and speak no German or very little,they will be staying somewhere in the southern part of Germany and the kids will be going to a private school (Waldorf?).The kids arent too keen on this idea but mother is the boss and she thinks the kids will benefit from the experience plus get to know all the mothers family that reside in Germany.Hope mom and Dad have done their homework on the education and health care coverage.
Any potential issues they should be aware of that they may not discover until they are over there?
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:15 AM   #19
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I can't get health insurance due to a pre-existing condition that is a lifelong chronic ailment. Plus, to pay health insurance for the rest of the family in the US would put an end to my ER. I originally moved overseas so I could ER.

Yes, Germans are actually loud in public. Scandinavians are quieter.
Shhh. I"m Swedish...
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Old 07-26-2009, 04:01 PM   #20
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This is probably a stupid question but it is something I always wondered.

If you only speak English will you be ok in Germany or do you have to learn German to really be able to get along in Germany?

Jim
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