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Old 05-20-2015, 05:49 PM   #61
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That's amazing, but I believe it. Friend of ours had a Prius and to replace a headlight bulb he had to take the bumper and fender off!

Engineers who design stuff like that should be taken out and shot.
Sometimes, you have to wonder if complexity is not introduced on purpose so that people become dependent on the dealership for repairs. On my old Ford Tempo and Mazda Miata, simple repairs like changing the battery were super easy. They required no special tools or skills. On most modern cars, forget about it.
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:51 PM   #62
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[QUOTE=Walt34;1595222.... I will never, ever, buy a Prius if the company is so incredibly sloppy so as to release a design that requires removing a fender and bumper just to replace a light bulb....QUOTE]

Is that what the FSM specifies? Are the projectors isolated behind the fender?

I have to disassemble quite a bit sometimes on my MX5 for simple inexpensive parts (i.e. T-Stat), but that sounds like alot of trouble for a lamp.

_B
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Old 05-20-2015, 06:05 PM   #63
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Sometimes, you have to wonder if complexity is not introduced on purpose so that people become dependent on the dealership for repairs. On my old Ford Tempo and Mazda Miata, simple repairs like changing the battery were super easy. They required no special tools or skills. On most modern cars, forget about it.
I've never seen collusion to send more work to the dealers. In my experience, it was always a struggle for the company to keep the dealers from blackening the company name, as well as to keep the dealers from hosing the company on bogus warranty charges. It is not a cozy relationship and it is hard to get rid of a bad dealer because of state laws that favor dealers.
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Old 05-20-2015, 06:06 PM   #64
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I tried to change a front parking light on my 2006 Audi TT. After breaking a couple of plastic pins, I took it to a German car specialist. He had it done in about 5 minutes. I have no clue how he did it. Didn't charge me anything on that, but his hourly rate was about the same as the dealership.
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Old 05-20-2015, 06:14 PM   #65
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I've never seen collusion to send more work to the dealers. In my experience, it was always a struggle for the company to keep the dealers from blackening the company name, as well as to keep the dealers from hosing the company on bogus warranty charges. It is not a cozy relationship and it is hard to get rid of a bad dealer because of state laws that favor dealers.
Good to know, thanks!
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Old 05-20-2015, 06:22 PM   #66
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Is that what the FSM specifies? Are the projectors isolated behind the fender?

I have to disassemble quite a bit sometimes on my MX5 for simple inexpensive parts (i.e. T-Stat), but that sounds like alot of trouble for a lamp.
I have no idea really, I wasn't there when he did it. But it just seems incredible that cars have been made for a century now and they couldn't think of a better way to place the headlight bulbs?

On my GMC pickup you don't even need any tools - the parts are held in with spring tabs and a steel rod and just pop in and out. It can't get much simpler than that. Not to say that it is a model of simplicity - they put the fuel pump inside the gas tank so if the fuel pump goes bad you have to either raise the pickup bed or drop the fuel tank to get to it. They really, really, couldn't think of a better way than that? I doubt it.

Some will point out that the pump is cooled by the fuel surrounding it. Okay, why? They can't make an air-cooled fuel pump and put it outside the tank? I don't think so. It's stuff like that, that increases maintenance expenses that drives me nuts.
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:56 AM   #67
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Part of the problem is that IMO the car makers don't think the average car buyer cares about maintainability. I always check the *ease of maintenance* of any car before I buy it. Currently have a 2009 Nissan Versa, which checked out as pretty good in that category. Only *committee-created engineering fiasco* seems to be that to change the spark plugs you need to remove the intake manifold!!! I knew this and bought the car anyway since the fancy new-fangled plugs last for 95,000 miles, supposedly. I have 78,000 miles on it now and the plugs are working fine. Woohoo ! I do plan to do them myself when the time comes, via Youtube.
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:17 AM   #68
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Part of the problem is that IMO the car makers don't think the average car buyer cares about maintainability. I always check the *ease of maintenance* of any car before I buy it. ...
Where do you find this info?

I'd also like to avoid getting stuck with a light bulb change, or other simple maintenance issue that is unreasonably difficult/expensive. But I've only founf generic 'total cost of ownership' numbers, or random complaints. Are these organized somewhere, by model?

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Old 05-21-2015, 10:25 AM   #69
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... - they put the fuel pump inside the gas tank so if the fuel pump goes bad you have to either raise the pickup bed or drop the fuel tank to get to it. They really, really, couldn't think of a better way than that? I doubt it.

Some will point out that the pump is cooled by the fuel surrounding it. Okay, why? They can't make an air-cooled fuel pump and put it outside the tank? I don't think so. It's stuff like that, that increases maintenance expenses that drives me nuts.
Wiki covers this a bit - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_pump

The pump is submerged in gas, as that is the safest way to do it. Vapors ignite, but liquid is actually hard to ignite. I get the impression from what I've read (never had a modern fuel pump apart myself), that the pump is at the very bottom, below the intake port, so even 'empty', the pump would still be covered with liquid.

And there are safety mechanisms to shut off the pump in a crash, or other defect detected.

Lots of talk on the net about how running low on gas will cause the pump to overheat, but I'm skeptical. It is always submerged - how much heat can that pump generate? How hot would they allow the gasoline to get?

Back to the replacement - pumps are pretty reliable. It's possible that making them easier to replace would have cost more on average (added cost to every single vehicle) than a more involved replacement method, which is going to happen on only a small fraction of the vehicles.

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Old 05-21-2015, 10:34 AM   #70
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fuel pump on my scoob is inside the tank


I'm actually getting a hp one put in next week so I can run e85


An hour or so of labor - even to change the fuel filter you have to drop the tank
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Old 05-21-2015, 11:53 AM   #71
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That's amazing, but I believe it. Friend of ours had a Prius and to replace a headlight bulb he had to take the bumper and fender off!

Engineers who design stuff like that should be taken out and shot.
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Old 05-21-2015, 12:28 PM   #72
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fuel pump on my scoob is inside the tank


I'm actually getting a hp one put in next week so I can run e85


An hour or so of labor - even to change the fuel filter you have to drop the tank
VW does the same thing (in tank pump) as many auto manufacturers do these days, but installs an access plate in the top of the fuel tank under the rear seat for easy pump removal.
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Old 05-21-2015, 12:41 PM   #73
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VW does the same thing (in tank pump) as many auto manufacturers do these days, but installs an access plate in the top of the fuel tank under the rear seat for easy pump removal.
my WRX had an access panel - the FXT doesn't
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Old 05-21-2015, 12:52 PM   #74
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One of the reasons I am RE is that I never bought a brand new car, and never will. In the last 10 years or so, I have always bought one owner, low mile, 1-3 year old cars and kept them to just under 100k miles. Lately all Toyotas and Volkswagens. If you have to have the "thrill" of a brand new car, be aware of what it is really costing you in depreciation.

To the OP, my .02 cents:

Never buy a brand new car.
Never buy a Ford.
Never take a car to a dealer for repairs unless it is warranty.
Do your own oil changes, it really isn't that hard (unless maybe you live in a city apt. or something like that.)
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:02 PM   #75
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^^ depends - if you buy used you may be buying someone else's problem - the turbo on my 09 FXT ended up failing at 59 months, probably due to lack of maintenance by the prior owner, turbo failure caused metal to be shot into the intake (bad juju) and it spun a rod bearing - at least it was covered under warranty and I got a new sb out of it
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:06 PM   #76
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Some will point out that the pump is cooled by the fuel surrounding it. Okay, why? They can't make an air-cooled fuel pump and put it outside the tank? I don't think so. It's stuff like that, that increases maintenance expenses that drives me nuts.
THe fuel pump is easily cooled by fuel flowing through it. My 88 Jguar had a flow through fuel pump mounted externally. As did my 74 Mercedes 450. Yes both were fuel injected cars with high pressure fuel pump, unlike carbed cars with loww pressure pump.

Then Ford bought Jaguar and the fuel pump is now in the tank of my 95. And a PITA to replace, unless a smart alec such as I cut a hole in rear deck, under the decorative panel.
Another brilliant manufacturing move. Yeccch!
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:20 PM   #77
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I had a 1967 AMC Rebel that had a freeze plug rust out and start leaking. Dealer said, "need to pull the engine to fix it". I cut a 4" diameter hole in the firewall, popped in a new freeze plug, pop riveted a cover on the hole and covered it with the carpet.

BTW I was never a package engineer, so don't shoot me.

IIRC 57 chevy V8 rear plugs were never changed unless engine was pulled or holes cut in firewall.
I'm not sure but around then maybe 55? oil filtes were not in the design.
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:51 PM   #78
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But....

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Luscious Garage charges $30 for the replacement. Supply your own bulb or buy one of ours, Philips D4R OE bulb, for $94 plus tax.
$94, for a headlight bulb? The halogen bulbs in my Volvo are like $5-$10 each. For $94, I'd expect LED and never needing to replace them. Are these special 'green' headlights?


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One of the reasons I am RE is that I never bought a brand new car, and never will. In the last 10 years or so, I have always bought one owner, low mile, 1-3 year old cars and kept them to just under 100k miles. Lately all Toyotas and Volkswagens. If you have to have the "thrill" of a brand new car, be aware of what it is really costing you in depreciation. ...
I don't think this advice holds water anymore (or at least not in all cases). My current car is going on 15 years. I don't think that first few years depreciation really matters over the long run, and as others mentioned - how was it treated those first years? Probably not as well as I would treat it, hoping to get 10+ years out of it. Why chance it. And you move up those first maintenance jobs, some to shortly after you buy it - new tires, brakes, maybe coolant changes, etc.

'cars' in the past 10 years? Do you put a lot of miles on them? Maybe your situation is different, but you made the statement in an absolute manner. One of my mottoes - "Never say 'never'".

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Old 05-21-2015, 01:59 PM   #79
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^^ depends - if you buy used you may be buying someone else's problem - the turbo on my 09 FXT ended up failing at 59 months, probably due to lack of maintenance by the prior owner, turbo failure caused metal to be shot into the intake (bad juju) and it spun a rod bearing - at least it was covered under warranty and I got a new sb out of it
Oh, forgot:

By a car with a known maintenance history.
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Old 05-21-2015, 02:04 PM   #80
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Oh, forgot:

By a car with a known maintenance history.
And make sure if it has a turbocharger, the correct synthetic oil was used in it's life.
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