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CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-09-2007, 01:34 PM   #21
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CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Right now they look like hell. Imagine a regular light bulb coated with glue and then dipped in lite-brite pegs.

But the light is less stark than cfls and they're 1/10th the electric usage of a cfl. And while a fluorescent requires about the equivalent of 30 seconds of run time to 'start' (in other words, dont turn it off if you're going to be turning it back on within 30 seconds), the led is nearly zero for start up draw.
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CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-09-2007, 04:24 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
But the light is less stark than cfls and they're 1/10th the electric usage of a cfl.
Where you getting that number from? The best I've seen puts LEDS at just slightly better than a CFL.

http://www.netl.doe.gov/ssl/PDFs/ene...y_oct25_06.pdf

CREE has some new higher eff LEDS, but I don't know the cost, and you do need to consider the driver eff. They run about 80 lumens per watt.

http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp.asp

LEDS are a real winner in traffic lights. To make high reliability incandescent lights that can handle temperature extremes, you end up with a thick filament and that equals low eff. Then, filter out most of the white light to get just the red or green light (yellow is only on a few % of the time), and your eff gets slashed again. LEDS produce red and green w/o filters, work over all the temperatures, so are much more eff in these applications. Same with flashlights.

-ERD50
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Old 02-09-2007, 07:05 PM   #23
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CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Another liberal source telling us there is really is global warming:

Quote:
Big Oil behemoth Exxon Mobil Corp. has dropped any pretense of questioning whether global warming is real. Now the company is seeking to position itself as an active player in efforts to lower greenhouse gases.

"The appropriate debate isn't on whether climate is changing, but rather should be on what we should be doing about it," Kenneth Cohen, Exxon's vice president of public affairs, told reporters on a conference call Thursday.

The call came less than a week after an international panel of hundreds of scientists said new research showed global warming was "unequivocal" and that human activity was primarily responsible for the most significant factor in temperature change — greenhouse gases.

"Climate is changing. It's a serious issue. The evidence is there," Cohen said on the call, which was arranged in part to allow Exxon to state its position on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's report.

When pressed, Cohen said "there is no question that human activity is the source of carbon dioxide emissions," and emphasized that Exxon is working with various policy groups and universities to find ways to produce energy while lowering greenhouse gases.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/4539329.html
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Old 02-09-2007, 08:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ERD50
Where you getting that number from? The best I've seen puts LEDS at just slightly better than a CFL.
Mythbusters...they displayed this chart while comparing light bulb steady state electricity usage:

* Incandescent 90 Wh
* Compact Fluorescent (CFL): 10 Wh
* Halogen: 70 Wh
* Metal halide 60 Wh
* LED: 1 Wh
* Fluorescent: 10 Wh

One other tidbit from their 'testing':

"They tested one final element of this myth: frequently turning lights on and off decreases their life span, thus leading to greater costs. Grant setup a timer and relay to turn the bulbs on and off repeatedly every 2 minutes. After six weeks, only the LED bulb was still working. Based on this test, they extrapolated that it would take five years of ordinary usage to cause the bulbs to burn out."
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Old 02-09-2007, 09:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Mythbusters...they displayed this chart while comparing light bulb steady state electricity usage:

* Incandescent 90 Wh
* Compact Fluorescent (CFL): 10 Wh
* Halogen: 70 Wh
* Metal halide 60 Wh
* LED: 1 Wh
* Fluorescent: 10 Wh

One other tidbit from their 'testing':

"They tested one final element of this myth: frequently turning lights on and off decreases their life span, thus leading to greater costs. Grant setup a timer and relay to turn the bulbs on and off repeatedly every 2 minutes. After six weeks, only the LED bulb was still working. Based on this test, they extrapolated that it would take five years of ordinary usage to cause the bulbs to burn out."
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/12/e..._fall_lig.html

Looks like that data was for turn on/off analysis. They measured start-up current vs steady state to determine if it made sense to turn a light off when you leave the room. It does not appear that they made any attempt to match the lumens of each type of light source. So it shows consumption of a source, but w/o the light output (lumens) it says nothing about efficiency.

I still want LEDS - no glass to break, no mercury, but I don't expect them to be much more eff than a CFL.

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Old 02-10-2007, 09:32 AM   #26
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They did do startup, but I thought this was a 'watt hour' test that showed steady state consumption. You're probably right about lining up the same lumen output, although on the face of it that makes me wonder how good any of the comparisons were. But then I always find 3-4 things to quibble about with regards to mythbuster experiments...

For what its worth, the lights they were using seemed to be of somewhat similar light output...its not like they had some little lite-brite peg for an LED vs a 90 watt incandescent. It was a full size bulb that was putting off some serious light.
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Old 02-10-2007, 11:34 AM   #27
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All I know is since learning of the LED bulbs, the cloud of "smug" that formed over my house from installing CFLs has dissapated.
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
They did do startup, but I thought this was a 'watt hour' test that showed steady state consumption. You're probably right about lining up the same lumen output, although on the face of it that makes me wonder how good any of the comparisons were. But then I always find 3-4 things to quibble about with regards to mythbuster experiments...

For what its worth, the lights they were using seemed to be of somewhat similar light output...its not like they had some little lite-brite peg for an LED vs a 90 watt incandescent. It was a full size bulb that was putting off some serious light.
Well, several different sources are showing LEDS peaking @ about 70 lumens/watt. CFLs max out at around 60 lumens/watt, florescent tubes do better - around 100 L/W. Incandescent tungsten about 16 lumens / watt (very dependent on wattage - one high watt bulb is more efficient than two or three low watt bulbs together for the same light output). Here's one ref:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminou...acy#Examples_2

I'm guessing the TV camera made them look similar brightness, but 1W is only going to get you ~ 70 lumens max, and that 90 watt tungsten would be around 1400 lumens. The cameras compress the differences, as does your eye/brain.

I'd be curious to see a cradle-to-grave analysis of LED vs tungsten vs CFL - those CFLs have mercury in them, offset somewhat by less mercury spewed by a coal burning plant to produce the electricity. But, I wonder how much energy and pollution an LED creates in it's production. It's longer life span would help. I have had one CFL burn out, I was moving the lamp at he time, maybe it didn't like that?

RE: Mythbusters and 'scientific technique' - I never watched the show (don't have cable), but my brother started talking it up. Sounded interesting, so I looked up some references on the web. From what I've read, these guys are doing the public a disservice by presenting this stuff as 'factual' or scientific. These guys are really weak, often do not set up the experiments correctly, and make statements that cannot be derived from their data. The most common logic error seems to be - 'we tried to do X and couldn't do it, therefore it can't be done'. WRONG. It just meant they couldn't do it. It does not mean it can't be done under different conditions, etc. With that logic, I could 'prove' that it is impossible to run a four minute mile (or five minute for that matter) .

-ERD50
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Old 02-11-2007, 10:00 AM   #29
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The mythbusters guys definitely leave a lot of big gaping holes.

But where else can you see a crash test dummy strapped to a toilet full of gasoline in a sealed plastic room blown up? Or the same dummy dropped from a bridge into the SF bay? Or strapped to a chair lined with rockets a la wiley coyote and launched in the air? Or a rocket that uses salami as rocket fuel? Or employing FBI explosives experts to blow up a cement truck full of concrete to the point where it disintegrates? Or using a full size crane and a pile of storage containers as a gigantic trebuchet?

My favorite "what the?" of all mythbusters time was the "jaws" one. Someone help me with this logic:

"We've all seen the jaws movie where the giant 25' shark does x, y and z. We're going to try to see if a shark that big could really do all those things. Now the largest great white shark ever caught was 21 feet. So we're going to make a 21 foot dummy shark and..."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I've had two CFL's burn out, but one of them went right away after a buzz and rattle, so it was probably made wrong, and the other one was a garage light exposed to 120 degree heat that nevertheless lasted about 8 year of irregular use.
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Old 02-11-2007, 11:30 AM   #30
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Interesting discussion. My technical volunteer interests keep me in contact with the companies that are producing most of the white light LEDs. I have a handfull of LED flashlights and keychain lights (even lighted ink pens) that these companies give away at technical trade shows, so techno-geeks are often discussing this topic at conferences. This is an interesting technology that has already found applications in traffic lights as mentioned in previous posts. General lighting is their target market to experience massive growth. But there are some aspects of this technology applied to general lighting that I'm not sure have been completely considered. 1) the LEDs that are showing high efficiency are operating off of low voltage DC power. Any effort to run these from 110V AC requires that every outlet include a power converter. While this is a fairly trivial thing to accomplish, it does add cost, efficiency, and reliability concerns that have to be considered. There is some talk and progress toward developing an AC LED light, but that's not the device that is producing high efficiency. 2) LED manufacture requires the growth and processing of high purity semiconductors (primarily SiC and GaN). This growth and processing requires a great deal of energy -- lots of ovens involved in several stages of development. Today, SiC and GaN cannot be grown on wafers of larger than 4" diameter (in contrast some production Silicon wafers are 12" diameter). Most GaN and SiC devices are still being manufactured on 2" or 3" wafers. It would require a huge uptick in volume requirements to justify processing white light LEDs on 12" wafers, thus enjoying the economies of scale that Silicon enjoys. Until that happens, the energy/cost tradeoffs are not going to be nearly as attractive. So we have a "chicken or the egg" problem here.

I have purchased and used a number of CFLs over the years. The ones I purchased years ago all exhibited very short lifetimes and never came close to paying for themselves. I decided to try again several months ago and purchased 3 more. So far, so good. The problem is, I have a stack of incandescent bulbs in my cabinet that were free after rebate. I seem to be able to find more light bulb sales that offer "free" bulbs than I can use. The alternate lighting technologies have to offer dramatic cost reductions with very high reliability to beat the end-of-life costs of conventional lighting.
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Old 02-11-2007, 11:40 AM   #31
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Ugh. Dont make me take a picture of my "light bulb closet"... :P

I must have 60 incandescent bulbs and absolutely no use for them until I sell the house, remove all my cfls, and replace them all with the original incandescents.

The really cool thing I saw on some tv show was a "light gathering device" that used optical fibers to gather and distribute light throughout a home, including storage for night time use.

Here:
http://www.inhabitat.com/entry_4.php
http://www.arch.hku.hk/~kpcheung/daylight/day-4.htm

This is fun too: http://www.builditsolar.com/Referenc...ion.htm#Lights
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Old 02-11-2007, 02:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Interesting discussion. .... 1) the LEDs that are showing high efficiency are operating off of low voltage DC power. Any effort to run these from 110V AC requires that every outlet include a power converter. While this is a fairly trivial thing to accomplish, it does add cost, efficiency, and reliability concerns that have to be considered.
True, each LED operates on about 3 volts DC. But that issue is somewhat offset by the fact that you need several LEDS chips (about a dozen) to come up with the equivalent light output of one standard 60W bulb. So, 12 chips in series x 3V each is 36V DC, So, yes, you still need a converter to run from standard AC, some added complexity, cost and reliability issues - but you don't need to convert all the way down to 3V. That is what makes them so perfect for flashlights ( 2 cells ~ 3V), and cars (4 LEDS in series match the 12V car system). I'm pretty sure traffic lights run on 48V to take advantage of standard industrial (telco) battery backup systems, so they can match a string of LEDS to 48V.

Quote:
2) LED manufacture requires the growth and processing of high purity semiconductors (primarily SiC and GaN). This growth and processing requires a great deal of energy
I'd like to see some numbers on this for all the bulb types. We might be robbing Peter to pay Paul? Similar to solar panels, I understand it takes a considerable time to generate enough energy to offset the energy used to make the panel. That is why it is so tough to compete with petroleum and coal - all that energy was produced a million years ago. All we need to do is pump or dig it out of the ground and burn it. Unfortunately, that creates other problems.

Quote:
I have purchased and used a number of CFLs over the years. The ones I purchased years ago all exhibited very short lifetimes and never came close to paying for themselves. I decided to try again several months ago and purchased 3 more. So far, so good.
The new ones are much better than the old. I gave up on them until I saw some my FIL had installed. I really liked the light, no flicker, and they are cheap enough to try out again. I keep replacing more and more as time goes on.

-ERD50
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Old 02-11-2007, 07:20 PM   #33
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

One way to lower the use of lights ...My sister bought one of these. Many in her community have them.

http://solatube.com/
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Solatube Daylighting System

Natural light lifts spirits, makes spaces appear larger, and reveals our world in its true color. Beyond its aesthetic appeal, it also reduces eyestrain, increases our productivity, and lessens electrical demand. Unfortunately, today's buildings rarely have enough natural light.

Now it's possible to change that with a highly advanced, yet affordable Solatube Daylighting System. The Solatube Daylighting System utilizes revolutionary breakthrough technology to redirect light down a highly reflective shaft and diffuse it throughout your interior space. Whether you need to light a small bathroom or a warehouse, the Solatube Daylighting System has the right light for anyresidential orcommercial need. When used alone, or in multiples to light expansive spaces, the Solatube160 DS, 290 DS, 21-O and 21-C are sure to deliver the light that you need. Solatube, Innovation in Daylighting™.
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Old 02-11-2007, 07:29 PM   #34
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From a guy in Australia:

Chest fridge that consumes about 0.1 kWh per day. Yes, only about 100 Wh per day. If I connected my chest fridge to the power grid $5 would pay for the entire year of using it.
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Old 02-12-2007, 09:57 AM   #35
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Hmmm...I'll have to poke around...I was just looking at a batch of those at lowes the other day and they were a little more efficient than a standing freezer, but not THAT much.

All my neighbors hunt and fish all the dang time, since we live in the middle of excellent territory for both. They're always offering me sacks of stuff and I usually have to shrug and say i'm out of freezer space.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:20 AM   #36
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No, it's a freezer that's used as a fridge. You just add a thermostat to an everyday chest freezer that turns on the "Freezer" only when the temp goes above 40 degrees.

The main savings comes from the fact that all the cold just sits in the well-insulated tub.

You'd have to be a real radical tightwad to use it, since it would take up a lot of space in the kitchen, and you'd have to bend over every time you wanted to get the butter, but it's a very clever idea.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
you'd have to bend over every time you wanted to get the butter
Theres a joke in there somewhere.

Ah...I see, its been modded down. Makes more sense now, but considering current convenience features going to three doors and whatnot, bending over appears to not be something americans want to do.

Whoops, theres another one.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:44 AM   #38
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny


All my neighbors hunt and fish all the dang time, since we live in the middle of excellent territory for both. They're always offering me sacks of stuff and I usually have to shrug and say i'm out of freezer space.
Hey Fuzzy: (Apoligize to the rest of the board for temporarily going off topic.) I remember telling you a long time ago, that you are in the best part of Calif. (Unless you are an aspiriing rock star, or look forward to spending your time bar-hopping with Paris Hilton)

I quit hunting two years ago because it was interferring with playing tournament golf. (My wife was not really happy about that, because golf balls are really hard to digest, and she loves venison.)

My great nephews (fortunantly) supply my wife with all the "game" that we can handle.

At last count in our freezer, we had venison, duck, Geese, trout, Salmon,
Dove, Quail, Elk, etc. etc. (A carnivors delight).

Sorry for going off topic.

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Old 02-12-2007, 10:44 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Theres a joke in there somewhere.

....bending over appears to not be something americans want to do....
Only in election years!

Let no opportunity go wasted.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:53 AM   #40
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Apologize to the rest of the board for temporarily going off topic.
Well shoot, that never happens.

Its a nice area...if we could get rid of the gangs and the meth labs that is... :P

Laurence...you owe me a beer for the slow throw right over the plate.
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