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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-14-2007, 11:04 PM   #61
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

This thread just convinced me to start trying harder to conserve energy. I just turned the brightness down on my monitor.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-15-2007, 07:29 AM   #62
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Ha! I usually don't mention the CFB's, but the Valentine's Day champagne ...


eridanus, if you ever have a discussion with a true "Stalinist" (who proudly referred to themselves in that manner, in my conversations), you will understand ... you'll hear how evil you are if you have fewer than 2 or 3 people per bedroom, the state should allocate housing, etc. Those conversations were quite illuminating ... though not as bright as CFB's ...


I also met Russell Means and Amory Lovins back then ... those were interesting days ... environmentalism is a wonderful and proper philosophy. But it will benefit most from intellectual honesty, and facts instead of coercion and lemming behavior. Will be fascinating to see where the true, honest science really ends up on global warming.


BTW, regarding the U.S. being the #1 polluter ... The Nordic countries ranked highest in environmental sustainability, a survey released Friday at the World Economic Forum reported. [snip]

The United States was ranked No. 45. Despite ranking high in water quality and environmental protection, its production of greenhouse gases dragged down its overall standing. Britain was No. 66. Finishing at the bottom of the Environmental Sustainability Index were North Korea, Iraq, Taiwan, and the ex-Soviet republics of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-15-2007, 09:51 AM   #63
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
This thread just convinced me to start trying harder to conserve energy. I just turned the brightness down on my monitor.
Reminds me of a Gallagher skit: "They should put an intelligence knobs on televisions; they have a brightness control, but that doesn't work..."

However, I would argue that there IS an intelligence knob; it's called "OFF"...
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-15-2007, 09:13 PM   #64
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

I hope to learn to collect, store, and regulate solar for light and whatever else I can power with it Ė but I donít intend to mess around with it until Iím retired. Would be a waste of money to invest in doing it in a house I will sell probably sooner vice later.
My interest in the technology has nothing to do with any ideology though. Definitely not Stalinist Ė maybe Gilliganís-Islandist. Iím just fascinated with self sufficiency (I know, itís not exactly self-sufficient when you buy the equipment to do it Ė but itís in the ballpark). Iíve always loved stories of survival and making a life in the wilderness Ė Robinson Crusoe, Swiss Family Robinson, Tunnel in the Sky, that sort of thing. I can picture myself in some remote locale, up late at night happily engrossed in some vintage sci-fi novel thatís been digitized and appears on a plasma screen powered by solar that I collected and stored myself. Iím pretty impressed with the brightness and battery life in LED flashlights. I also hear manufacturers are working out some the odd color issues to make more natural looking bright light that uses very little power.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-15-2007, 10:08 PM   #65
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

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. . .Ė maybe Gilliganís-Islandist. . .
Does this mean you like bad slapstick comedy?
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-16-2007, 06:59 AM   #66
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

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Gilliganís-Islandist
That describes it ... I agree, Average Joe.

I'm in the same boat on solar. Two things stop me ... uncertainly regarding our current abode, and the name of a trusted solar vendor who can assist with the project, soup to nuts.

I've told DW often we just need to cover the south side of the garage with solar panels ...
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-16-2007, 07:42 AM   #67
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

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Originally Posted by Laurence
With most cars filled with plastics - petrolium products - and the environmental impact of all the lead and potentially toxic chemicals in every vehicle, it really doesn't make sense to junk a car before it's run into the ground, even if I could improve gas mileage dramatically.
Well, if you are in a position that requires you to drive ~ 30,000 miles per year, I think it does make economic/environmental sense to purchase a high mpg car (whether hybrid or conventional high mpg). I'm hoping to avoid any emotional content here, and just say - it is still a personal decision, and there are other factors. Do as you see fit.

I don't think the 'junking' of your current vehicle is a valid argument, though. Wouldn't it be sold, and probably driven by someone who would drive less miles per year than you? There is no way to know this for sure, but it is likely - if it is in the 'junking' age, many people buy those as second cars or 'train station' cars and put very few miles on them. And every car gets 'junked' (partially recycled) at some point. It should be looked at a a sunk asset - it was doomed to be junked at the time it was purchased. So, I think that as long as the car is sold, and utilized for it's normal life, there is no more waste created by selling it - what does it matter how many owners a car has, as long as it is 'lives' out it's useful life? Now, if you buy new cars and total them every year, or don't maintain them at all so that they get scrapped early - that's a problem (in more ways than one).

-ERD50

PS - Although I think Shawn's response was over the top, I can see where someone would see some irony in the statement you made which links the war dead with our oil consumption, and a statement that you drive 30,000 miles a year. I think it may have been worthy of a discussion, but it came across to you as an attack.


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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-16-2007, 09:39 AM   #68
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Those numbers don't make sense to me. 100WH/day is just 4.166 watts per hour - about half of what a night light uses.

He says it runs just 2 minutes an hour. First, that it probably a really inefficient duty cycle (3.33% on) for a refrigeration unit - I think they need to run longer (at lower power) to overcome start-up losses. Most high efficient devices will actually be sized small to run near 100% - this does not add up.

Further, 4 watts/hour average used in 2 minutes an hour would be a 125 Watts draw ( ~ 1.1 Amp @ 115 V) for those 2 minutes. That is only enough to drive a 1/8 HP motor. I doubt you could find a chest freezer that consumes only 1.1 Amps while running - this does not add up. Well, here is one designed for off-grid applications, it might do it, but it is $590 for a very basic unit, Remember, this is a 10CFt fridge, inconvenient chest style, no freezer in this mode and then add $75 for a refrigerator thermostat:

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalo.../refriger2.htm

4.166 W per hour average is 14 BTUs per hour. Refrigeration is only about 50% efficient (probably less, plus insulation losses), so a generous 7 BTUs output. At that rate, it would consume all that cooling power for 34 hours just to bring a gallon of water from 70F to 40F. And about another 170 hours to turn it into ice, if you were to set the thermostat below 32F. So there is no way you can get those kind of numbers if you actually use it and put some room temperature food in there to cool. They probably looked at just steady state with the contents already cooled. I bet the energy-star numbers quoted by the appliance makers take some loading/unloading into account. I bet these numbers are not apples-to-apples at all.

You might have no choice off the grid, but I doubt this makes economic sense for most people. Looking at some units at Sears, I doubt you would realistically save more than $30 a year over a more conventional fridge sized at 10 cubic feet. And it would be much cheaper to buy. Two tips: Avoid putting hot food in your fridge (safely air or water cool it first), Stack up the food you are returning to the fridge - open the door *once* and put it all in at one time. These two things will save $ and require no investment.

Two observations:

One - I think many of these environmentalists (and I know a few like this) get a real ego-stroke by claiming that everyone else is so stupid and the world would be so much better if they just did this simple stuff that they do. Sometimes they may be right about some things, but take it with a huge grain of salt. Their numbers often do not add up, or they ignore the other impacts (like calling an EV pollution free).

Two - I hate these claims about 'look, we could save (put generic big number here) if everyone just did X,Y, and Z'. Trouble is, we use very, very big numbers of energy - so any small, small savings is a big number when taken out of context. 0.001% of our energy usage is a big number. Sure, small things add up, but we need to look at the big picture and prioritize efforts. IIRC, transportation accounts for 40% of our energy usage - some real, meaningful, across-the-board, long-term (but not draconian) CAFE standards could probably have done more to cut energy usage and reduce greenhouse gas than anything else. And if they did it over the past 30 years, we'd probably all be driving 35+ mpg vehicles and not even feel we were compromising in any way - technology would have taken care of that, if there was an incentive.

-ERD50

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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-16-2007, 09:53 AM   #69
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Okay, how about this:
- Lawrence buys an econobox for his daily driver. He'll keep it on the road for as long as practical/safe.
- Lawrence sells the present gas guzzler to somebody else. Almost anybody would drive fewer miles. After the sale, Lawrence bids a fond farewell to the "glugosaurus" with a final meal of two cups of sugar straight into the tank. As Lawrence waives goodbye to the beast, he'll know he's done the best thing possible for the environment.

Oh, oh!!:
- Maybe Shawn would be interested in checking out the glugosaurus. Lawrence might even give you a good deal---ya know, to bury the hatchet.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-16-2007, 11:17 AM   #70
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

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I'm in the same boat on solar. Two things stop me ... uncertainly regarding our current abode, and the name of a trusted solar vendor who can assist with the project, soup to nuts.
You're right, no homebuyer will pay you for a photovoltaic system. It probably returns the least % of all home improvements.

One type of solar contractor tries to underbid the crowd and survive on low margins. They don't have much flexibility and could easily leave you hanging while they're busy chasing the next job.

A better type of solar contractor has learned to invest in the latest tools, panel-mounting systems, & installation training to boost their margins. They have great customer-service & -education websites and long-term (highly trained) employees. The faster the serious customers find them so they can get up & down on the jobsite, the more money they make. It's unbelievable how quickly the installation can happen, even though every job is custom. So their prices are slightly above the average fees but by no means the most expensive. Ask them how long they've been doing installations and how long their top three workers have been with them.

The best solar contractor has become active in lobbying local govt and utilities for homeowner incentives. They know they can make the most money from govt buildings, schools, & businesses with the govt-supplied incentives to install 15 KW systems. If you run across a contractor like that (frequent quotes & articles in local publications) they'll probably treat you best. If they're investing in the "better" contractor's practices, too, then they'll be really busy...

Here's the guy who I consider "best" in our area: Keith Cronin. Maybe you can find someone comparable in yours.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-17-2007, 09:59 PM   #71
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Thanks, Nords.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-09-2007, 10:34 PM   #72
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

I didn't realize how cheap CFL bulbs had become. I went to Lowes today and picked up a pack of mini-CFLs (13W). 6 for $9, and there was a PSE instant-rebate that brought the price down to $3. $0.50/bulb.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-10-2007, 05:47 AM   #73
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

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Originally Posted by wab
I didn't realize how cheap CFL bulbs had become. I went to Lowes today and picked up a pack of mini-CFLs (13W). 6 for $9, and there was a PSE instant-rebate that brought the price down to $3. $0.50/bulb.
I am going to have to go check them out.... but, I am VERY disappointed in the ones I have bought...

The first batch from SAMS lasted just a bit under one year...

The second batch has two burned out in a little over one year and three still going, but they have turned very yellow...

I just bought a bright one that is (I think) 6,000 K... it is a nice white, but for some reason I just can't get used to the temp of this one... and only after one month it started to make some weird noise for a few days when turned on.. now it is back to 'normal'...

If they make them as cheap as the old ones.. then I don't care if they only last one year... but for 5 to 10 times more.... disappointed...
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-10-2007, 06:28 AM   #74
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

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Originally Posted by wab
I didn't realize how cheap CFL bulbs had become. I went to Lowes today and picked up a pack of mini-CFLs (13W). 6 for $9, and there was a PSE instant-rebate that brought the price down to $3. $0.50/bulb.
Pretty ridiculous, huh? With the PG&E instant rebates, same approx prices here. Except for one fixture with a dimmer that we infrequently use, I've got cfl's in every one.

Some of them buzz or hum, but on my small sample size, only a few out of about 45. I use those in the outside fixtures.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-10-2007, 08:33 AM   #75
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
I didn't realize how cheap CFL bulbs had become. I went to Lowes today and picked up a pack of mini-CFLs (13W). 6 for $9, and there was a PSE instant-rebate that brought the price down to $3. $0.50/bulb.
This thread has gotten me interested in trying some CFLs ut I don't know much about them. Do they rate them with comparable watt ratings to incandescent bulbs? If so, what would you do with a 13W CFL? Night light?
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-10-2007, 08:46 AM   #76
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
I am going to have to go check them out.... but, I am VERY disappointed in the ones I have bought...

The first batch from SAMS lasted just a bit under one year...

The second batch has two burned out in a little over one year and three still going, but they have turned very yellow...
....
I'm surprised. I don't have a lot of CFLs, because a lot of the most used lights in our house are on dimmers. But, probably 8 inside, and only one that burned out - and that was a floor lamp as I was moving it, so maybe the bump got it?

I've had some outside, on a timer, so probably on for an average 6 hrs/day all year for years. No burn outs. 2 of those are the old heavy ones that flicker a bit as they turn on. Worked fine through the cold weather here in Northern IL.

A tip: The outside lights are on one of those electronic timers that says 'incandescent only'. Turns out, these timers feed a little trickle current through the filament to power the timer when the lights are 'off'. A CFL does not have that filament to provide that current path. I solved that by putting in one 25W bulb in one of the fixtures. That is enough to keep the timer powered.

Also: here's a much more scientific analysis than Mythbusters for the 'should I turn off that CFL when I leave the room' question:

http://tinyurl.com/2fh2c8

Oh, for the last post - 13W CFL ~ same as a 60 Watt regular soft white. Try one and see.

A 'regular' night light is about 7W.

-ERD50
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-10-2007, 09:47 AM   #77
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

They usually mark the cfl packages with equivalences to regular bulbs.

Generally its a little shy of 1/4 the wattage for the same light output.

Other nice thing about CFL's in the summer time...they dont get anywhere near as hot as a regular incandescent lamp. Saves on the cooling. But then again, you get that back in the winter time as inefficient electric heating.
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-10-2007, 11:18 AM   #78
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
The first batch from SAMS lasted just a bit under one year...
The second batch has two burned out in a little over one year and three still going, but they have turned very yellow...
If they make them as cheap as the old ones.. then I don't care if they only last one year... but for 5 to 10 times more.... disappointed...
Amazing. We just had our first CFL burn out. It was nearly 10 years old, a "free" SDG&E gimme, and had been used in both San Diego & Hawaii in three different homes. (Hey, those CFLs used to be expensive!) Luckily we got a second CFL at the same time as the first one and we've also been moving it with us for the last decade. It replaced the burned-out one, it works just fine, and we're probably going to get a decade out of it too.

We found low-wattage globes for our bathroom light fixtures. We're using one-quarter as many bulbs and the room's temperature reduction is impressive. If it makes a difference, we're buying them from Lowe's & Home Depot instead of Sam's.

Almost our entire house is CFL. The only remaining incancescent bulbs are either not turned on for long or are hardly ever used. Someday they'll go CFL as well.

What do we do with our drawer full of incandescent bulbs?!?
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-10-2007, 11:37 AM   #79
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

Do what I do. Save them to put back in the fixtures in your old house when you move all the cfl's to the new house.

Then I guess I'll be saving THOSE leftover incandescents for 9 years until i move out of THAT house


Actually, the tiny little narrow yet tall cabinets over the stove where the vent pipe from the vent hood runs is useless for almost anything...but just the right width for light bulb boxes...
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 03-10-2007, 08:40 PM   #80
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Re: CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

We had one CFL burn out after just a few months, the others are still going but I was shocked. Maybe poor quality control?
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