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Old 02-07-2007, 11:35 PM   #1
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Hmmm. Like I've said before, perhaps it'd be a good idea if we spent less time on who is to blame and more time on figuring out if theres anything we can do about it before half of us are swimming in warm water and the other half aint happy.

There are some sh*t simple things we can do like install fluorescent lightbulbs, press the automakers to increase the CAFE and give some nicer subsidies for converting homes to solar. Its a start. Go from there. If its just the way its going to be and nothing we're going to do will help, at least we took a good shot at it.

Bear in mind this comes from a serious old school conservative.
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CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents
Old 02-08-2007, 06:33 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mh
what's to solve ? stop burning fossil fuels. you go first :-)
I did, I voted for Gore in 2000.
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Old 02-08-2007, 07:09 AM   #4
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Where you get that Whoo - Fox News
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Old 02-08-2007, 07:40 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Where you get that Whoo - Fox News
If you click on the quote (the blue text) it will take you to that other bastion of right wing news, MSNBC/Newsweek.

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Old 02-08-2007, 08:05 AM   #6
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So is the consensus from that angle to do nothing and hope for the best?

Funny side thought...I'd imagine a lot of people figure that at a modest income level, the herd mentality says that theres no way they could squirrel away enough to retire in their 40's. Yet some manage it. Others hit 65 figuring theres nothing they can realistically do about retiring, so lets just get there and see what happens.

Theres a lot of smart small choices and actions. And not to open another can of worms, but some big ones like not spending a brazillion dollars on a war primarily over oil when the same expenditures could have done some impressive things. Maybe a handful of 500 acre solar farms here in the southwest?

I often point out that there are two kinds of people...the ones that make things happen and the ones that let things happen to them. I think we owe it to our kids and grandkids to make something happen.
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Old 02-08-2007, 09:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
So is the consensus from that angle to do nothing and hope for the best?
That's one option, but I didn't see it as the point of the article.

What I heard was the cost in economic terms to significantly reduce (stopping is out of the question) the projected impact of global warming is greater than society is currently willing to pay. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take reasonable actions to reduce the impact of the path we are currently on.

"Any realistic response [to reverse global warming] would be costly, uncertain and no doubt unpopular."

"What we really need is a more urgent program of research and development, focusing on nuclear power, electric batteries, alternative fuels and the capture of carbon dioxide. Naturally, there's no guarantee that socially acceptable and cost-competitive technologies will result. But without them, global warming is more or less on automatic pilot. Only new technologies would enable countries—rich and poor—to reconcile the immediate imperative of economic growth with the potential hazards of climate change."



IOW, do something, but don't expect either miracles or a free lunch.



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Old 02-08-2007, 09:56 AM   #8
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Why throw up Red Herrings? - The World's scientists agree that it is a problem and it needs solving! I don't think we need anyone here to second guess them! :
Not second guessing. I think the answers to my questions lead to the conclusion that there is a problem that must be addressed and that it is going to shift some aspects of economies. The inertia (against change) is being inetensified by those who are most benefitting by the current technologies. Why are shills like Limbaugh and Hannity so outspoken against environmentalism generally and concensus climate science? Who are they speaking for? Where do they get their talking points.
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:14 AM   #9
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Why are shills like Limbaugh and Hannity so outspoken against environmentalism generally and concensus climate science? Who are they speaking for? Where do they get their talking points.
They are speaking for right wing conservatives. They are the audience and these are the people they need to please to keep them viable.

These cons are the people that hate change of any kind. They like the status quo. In fact many of them would like to go back to 1957. Global warming is "Inconvienent for them" as it requires a lot of change. It's easier for them to deny it!
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:23 AM   #10
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Even more specific, conservatives back big business. The ones most affected by any reductions in green house gases would be the oil/energy businesses and the car business.

That until recently a former oil lobbyist was charged with redacting the science reports to remove anything concrete seems to be a pretty bright fast flashing red light on the dashboard....
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:38 AM   #11
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What about the fact that country like China gets a free pass on envorinmental issues, does not have to be in the Kyoto accord, and has 4 of the most polluted cities in the world?

I think the US pretty much has the toughest pollution standards in the world, and unless we can get the other nations to toughen theirs, the whole situation will not improve...............
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Old 02-08-2007, 02:16 PM   #12
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We are still the No. 1 polluter, and any mandates we create will have an effect globally. Often times, companies aren't going to build two factories, one for "U.S. compliant" widgets and one for the rest of the world. That's why changes in my state ( CA ) are worth it, even if you run the raw numbers and say " that reduction by Cali isn't going to be a significant change globally". Companies want entry to our market, will develop compliant technology, they have it now, why not keep producing it for other places. The startup costs are big, but once the widget stream is flowing it's not much of an ongoing cost. CA has a bill going through right now to ban incandecent bulbs and make everybody use compact florescents. Dollars to donuts you'll see increased supply and use of these in surrounding states who don't pass the law. I hear the change will be the equivalent of taking 400,000 cars off the road.
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Old 02-08-2007, 07:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
We are still the No. 1 polluter ...
Interesting that we seem to be making some progress - we are 'less bad' than Europe?

http://tinyurl.com/38sdos

Quote:
"I would point out that ... there is a carbon cap system in place in Europe, we are doing a better job of reducing emissions here," Snow said.

The White House said Snow was referring to figures from the International Energy Agency that from 2000 to 2004, U.S. carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel combustion grew by 1.7 percent, while in the European Union such emissions grew by 5 percent.
I'm not sure about any of the numbers, but clearly we can do a better job at emitting CO2 and I think we might be surprised how little it costs. Some of the ideas *save* money.

It appears to me the govt is not prioritizng anything, just throwing money at pet projects. I think a real, top-down approach, that aimed at how to do the most with the least money could have some impact.

Does ethanol really make sense, for example? Seems like the best numbers I've seen show it to be somewhat positive - I'm not impressed. You could probably do better burning the corn in a coal plant (they do make corn burning home furnaces). That would require almost zero processing of the corn - isn't that more efficient than trying to make ethanol out of it (ferment, distill - requires heat) just so we can burn it in our cars? You could offset a petrol or NG plant with that power.

Heck, there are a million ideas, but it requires a plan, not pet projects.

We're doomed

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Old 02-08-2007, 09:14 PM   #14
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I think you are right, we don't have a plan because we don't have leadership on this issue. When the administration sees conservation as nothing more than "personal virtue" all you get is pet projects.

Ethanol is a sop to mega-corps like ADM. It's a loser.

Just imagine what a significant change it would be if incandesent bulbs were banned nationwide. There are a lot of things that can be done now for a low per person cost. People need to be educated as to the real cost of our current way of doing things. Let's start with 3000 dead and billions spent in Iraq.
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence


Ethanol is a sop to mega-corps like ADM. It's a loser.
Yes, and the politicians like to use it to get votes from the rural communities. Price of corn is up.

Quote:
Just imagine what a significant change it would be ...

Let's start with 3000 dead and billions spent in Iraq.
Just imagine what a significant change it would be if this wasn't always turned into a partisan issue

Neither party has done much of anything to bring about any significant change.

The newer CFLs are very good. I replace more of my home bulbs as they burn out, but I've got a lot on dimmers. I'm looking forward to the LEDs for home light. But, that is still a drop in the bucket compared to the real work that needs to be done. But, it is a start.

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Old 02-08-2007, 10:17 PM   #16
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If the warming trend is coming, I hope it gets to Wisconsin soon...
It will melt the ice and snow, and besides I know how to build a ARK..
Good luck on convincing our brothers in China and India and any other
overpopulated country to assist us in beating the warming problem..
Going to get up to 16 degrees tomorrow according to the weather guess'ers...time to break out the swim trunks 8)
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Old 02-09-2007, 10:16 AM   #17
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We're all CFL's here as I got tired of feeling like my grandpa and walking around shutting off lights and loudly announcing "What are we? The electric company around here? And who has been messing with the thermostat? Hold on while I hike my pants up a little more so I can barely see over the waistband...and you kids get the hell off my lawn!"

Our hefty electric bill dropped $30, then largely bounced back up as I found that mind set changed to "hey, it costs almost nothing to run these new lights, so lets leave all of them on all of the time!".

So now i'm looking at these new LED lights that use 1/10th of what CFL's use.

The CFL's are becoming a no-brainer. Costco keeps selling different packages of them for about a buck a bulb with PG&E rebates ringing up automatically at the register.
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Old 02-09-2007, 12:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Yes, and the politicians like to use it to get votes from the rural communities. Price of corn is up.

Just imagine what a significant change it would be if this wasn't always turned into a partisan issue

Neither party has done much of anything to bring about any significant change.

The newer CFLs are very good. I replace more of my home bulbs as they burn out, but I've got a lot on dimmers. I'm looking forward to the LEDs for home light. But, that is still a drop in the bucket compared to the real work that needs to be done. But, it is a start.

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I didn't use the D or the R word!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny


So now i'm looking at these new LED lights that use 1/10th of what CFL's use.

Both of you mention these LED lights, I haven't heard of them, must do some investigating. Of course, DW will roll her eyes since it's only been a few months since we put in all CFLs....
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Old 02-09-2007, 01:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Both of you mention these LED lights, I haven't heard of them, must do some investigating. Of course, DW will roll her eyes since it's only been a few months since we put in all CFLs....
You should be seeing them in just about every traffic light by now. And in the mid-90s PG&E was paying office buildings all over the county to replace their brightly-lit "EXIT" signs with LED equivalents.

I think the LED prices are now where CFLs were about five years ago. We're going to wait another 5-10 years before making the switch.

I like that CFLs hardly ever burn out. We have a drawer full of incandescent bulbs but I can't recall ever having to replace a CFL. Remember the old commercial where a kid tells the "How many does it take to change a lightbulb?" joke and another kid asks "Why would anyone need to change a lightbulb?!"?

For further research I'd highly recommend watching Candice Olson's "Divine Design" on HGTV. What were we talking about again?
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Old 02-09-2007, 01:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
You should be seeing them in just about every traffic light by now. And in the mid-90s PG&E was paying office buildings all over the county to replace their brightly-lit "EXIT" signs with LED equivalents.

I think the LED prices are now where CFLs were about five years ago. We're going to wait another 5-10 years before making the switch.

I like that CFLs hardly ever burn out. We have a drawer full of incandescent bulbs but I can't recall ever having to replace a CFL. Remember the old commercial where a kid tells the "How many does it take to change a lightbulb?" joke and another kid asks "Why would anyone need to change a lightbulb?!"?

For further research I'd highly recommend watching Candice Olson's "Divine Design" on HGTV. What were we talking about again?
The traffic lights are universal now, I just didn't see them for home use. Looking around on the web I find the price point to be a little high right now. But yes, when/if these CFL's burn out, I'll replace them with LED, where appropriate.
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