Feeling some Guilt and Regret over College

[ExFlyBoy5]

I like the idea of contributing "up to" a maximum amount...and it would have a caveat. What would that be, you ask? Well, you need to seek a degree that is *actually* useful and can be used to seek gainful employment. And no, they can't use this article to substantiate a $45K/year gender studies degree...

The top 10 undergraduate institutes that produce the most Nobel Prize winners — Quartz

This chart of Nobel Prize winners shows liberal-arts degrees aren’t worthless

 

[Philliefan33]

For those of you advocating that the student borrow any shortfall in funds, be aware that the amount a student is guaranteed to qualify for in loans may be only a drop in the bucket compared to the needed funds. Unless things have changed in the last couple of years, guaranteed student loans are $5K for the first two years of college, then I think $7500/yr for two years. If the DD in the OP's post needs to come up with 17K in her freshman year of college, she'll need to earn $12K in a part-time job. That would be very difficult.

There won't be many loans available to a college student without a cosigner, and it doesn't sound like the parents are willing to do that in this case.

 

[akck]

Just to note, most private colleges will offer grants and scholarships that make the cost equivalent to going to an out of state public university (public universities offer little to no scholarships to the majority of students). So don't necessarily write off any private schools your daughter might be interested in attending.

The FAFSA is definitely needed for any aid from most schools (some require another questionnaire too, can't recall the name of it). We received many notices wanting it in January, made difficult because we didn't have our numbers together until the end of the month or early February.

 

[rodi]

I'm following this thread with interest. We've budgeted about $30k/kid/year for college in their 529's. We will not be offering more than that.

I've been consistent in my message to them about college:
- You will be going to college.
- College is a place to get skills you can use in the workforce - not a place to pursue a non-monetizable passion. If you want to study art - then be prepared to get a teaching credential or something else to monetize your art knowledge in the workforce.
- Grades slip... money is cut off for future semesters.
- We live in a state with awesome public universities... that's what we budgeted for. But they are highly competitive to get into so they need to do well in HS.
- Community college is a good option to start out.

Only private schools we'll consider funding are ones that provide enough financial aid to bring the cost down to a UC equivalent.

 

[travelover]

.......... Courses taken to satisfy general ed. requirements are a good idea; foundational courses for a major (calculus, physics, chemistry etc.) should be avoided. ..........!

This may be true generally, but in my experience (one data point) Calculus was taught in community college with strong emphasis on learning and success. In the four year college, it was used as a flunk out course. My particular prof was a Chinese guy that barely spoke English and appeared to resent having to teach such a basic course. YMMV.

 

[Winemaker]

We paid half of our 3 kids college to state universities.
And my kids are the first generation in my family to go to college (at least 6 gens back).
All graduated with honors and no debt - they all worked to pay their half of costs.
Upon graduating all 3 echoed that employers were impressed that the worked while going to school. Two of them are making low 6 figures and the other is doing well making about $60k.

+2

DW and I did this with our son and daughter, however, our daughter attended a private college. They busted their tails, their friends thought we were ogres. They graduated, no debt, and were hired right out of school.

Their spouses are loaded with debt, and if it wasn't for my insistance they have some "skin" in the game, they wouldn't have been able to qualify to buy a house.

 

[Koolau]

The Cost of College bears no relation to the Cost of anything in the Real World.

Yep. I realize this is off topic, but I compare what our kids got (at the same school) as DW and I and realize our kids came up short for a much higher price. When I started Univ., tuition was significantly less than $400 per year. Working at $2/hour, that was 200 hours (5 weeks) work (yeah, yeah, taxes, etc. etc.) I stayed at home, but DW stayed in a housing unit which cost $1/day (no food with that.)

My point, college/univ. costs have spiraled out of control without any noticeable improvement in likelihood of becoming employed afterward. End of rant and, as always, YMMV.

 

[Bamaman]

I went away to college in 1968, and my sister was a senior in the same big city university. My stay at home mother had gone to work to put us through college without the thoughts of student loans. She certainly didn't want her little boy to go to Vietnam as a foot soldier.

I still keep in touch with many of my old fraternity brothers. Even in a large state university, most of them have been unexpectedly successful in business and life.
I still believe student loans are a product of the Devil and to be avoided if at all possible.

Our daughter started at my college part time while she was working fast food, at a flower shop and anywhere she could get a job. She married a guy in the Navy, and continued college on scholarships part time while working. We were especially proud to see her graduate with a 3.75 GPA in Accounting--at 25 years old. And she's always had jobs and does very well for herself.

My grand niece just had to go to Manhattan to acting school. Her deadbeat father somehow borrowed enough for 1 semester, and her 529 is insufficient to keep her there long @ $42K tuition plus living expenses in Greenwich Village. We're afraid the money won't be there for her to complete her specialized. high risk acting profession. And we don't want her to be hurt. She could have ridden her bicycle to a state university 4 blocks from home--and it has a great theater program.

My whole goal with college was to get in, get out in 4 years and get on life--with no loans. And thankfully, I pulled it off. It helped having common sense, being realistic and cheap in state tuition.

 

[Mulligan]

Did you opt for the surgery or just dress the part?

Neither, it was a hands on interaction experience.

 

[Mulligan]

Neither, it was a hands on interaction experience.

Then probably went straight over to Trumps house and engaged in "locker room talk".

 

[ugeauxgirl]

I don't feel that I OWE my children a college education- and I certainly don't owe them a private college education- we have saved a chunk of money in 529s that will probably cover 80% of a STATE school. For the rest they will have to get a job. If they get scholarships they can keep the difference. My dad got no help with his degree and my husband got no help with his 2 year degree, and I paid for my graduate degree with summer jobs and graduated debt free. Tell your daughter the truth- you cannot pay for her 60K first choice. You can help with her state college but she will have to chip in. Her resume will be impressive to future employers. I could work an extra year to be sure the college funds are fully funded, but I'd rather spend time with my kids.

 

[Texas Proud]

I don't feel that I OWE my children a college education- and I certainly don't owe them a private college education- we have saved a chunk of money in 529s that will probably cover 80% of a STATE school. For the rest they will have to get a job. If they get scholarships they can keep the difference. My dad got no help with his degree and my husband got no help with his 2 year degree, and I paid for my graduate degree with summer jobs and graduated debt free. Tell your daughter the truth- you cannot pay for her 60K first choice. You can help with her state college but she will have to chip in. Her resume will be impressive to future employers. I could work an extra year to be sure the college funds are fully funded, but I'd rather spend time with my kids.

I agree that you do not 'owe' a child college.... but most parents want to help out their child... no problem there...

But, you do remind me of a guy I knew many many years ago... he was on a bowling team... he was blue collar and had been in the navy... he said that when his son graduated from HS he asked him if he wanted to go to college.... son said yes... dad said 'good luck with that'....

I thought that was a bit cruel... but his thinking was that there were many opportunities on how to get a college education (this was in the 80s).... and one was to join the military... his son did join... I never knew what happened as I stopped bowling at that location and moved on...

But even today there are many options that people do not take.... and the military is one of them...

 

[Walt34]

But even today there are many options that people do not take.... and the military is one of them...

A niece (actually a family friend but we consider her one) is taking that route. She's active Navy and is in Bahrain now. She hates being away from family but I'm sure the experience will be good for her long term.

Around here military service is highly regarded as millions of people have bootstrapped themselves out of poverty going that route. Even if they don't go to college they get skills and knowledge that often transfer to civilian life.

Not always though. I knew a friend of mine worked on Marine jet aircraft on his tour in Vietnam but I didn't know what he did. When he got out he was lamenting the difficulty he was having finding a job. I said "well, you worked on airplanes, how about applying at one of the airlines?" He said "Walt, Eastern Airlines just doesn't have much need for ejection seat mechanics".

 

[Gumby]

I agree that you do not 'owe' a child college.... but most parents want to help out their child... no problem there...

But, you do remind me of a guy I knew many many years ago... he was on a bowling team... he was blue collar and had been in the navy... he said that when his son graduated from HS he asked him if he wanted to go to college.... son said yes... dad said 'good luck with that'....

I thought that was a bit cruel... but his thinking was that there were many opportunities on how to get a college education (this was in the 80s).... and one was to join the military... his son did join... I never knew what happened as I stopped bowling at that location and moved on...

But even today there are many options that people do not take.... and the military is one of them...

Pretty much exactly how it worked with me and my dad.

 

[Philliefan33]

While I agree that parents do not "owe" the kids a college education, DH and I believe that there is no better way to help them become adults who will be able to take care of themselves and any future family they may want.

We started saving for college from the day each daughter was born, and that helped us to be able to fully fund a four-year degree for them both. The oldest went to a private school, with an academic scholarship that brought the cost of attendance down to about equal to an in-state public university. D2 went to an in-state public university with no scholarships. All total, we spent about $270K on tuition/room/board. (The big public universities in PA are expensive, even for state residents.)

The girls worked summers and during school to cover books and social life. It would have been very, very difficult for them to fund a significant percentage of the total cost of attendance with part-time jobs. DH and I were happy to be in a position to take that burden from them.

We had both girls out of college by 2014. I ER'd in 2015. I would have kept working if we still had tuition bills.

 

[NanoSour]

OP here. First off, thanks for all the great replies. Your support means a lot as this truly is a difficult decision for both DD and our family.

Being that I've been ER'd for her HS career, I've pushed her to perform up to her potential since she started. (One of the many benefits of being a SAHD with an engineering degree). She entered senior year with a 3.9 GPA and got a 720 on reading/writing part of the SAT. Math was not quite that good, but respectable and should get her accepted to some second tier privates such as Wellesley, Smith, Reed, etc. Of course, this performance makes it all the more difficult to tell her that options are limited to in-state university.

I'm certainly not convinced that the education is better at a high priced private college, but I do believe her personality makeup is better suited to a smaller college with more like minded students. They're simply a better fit and I believe that is critical to her success.

I originally thought we would apply to 5 colleges max, but we're knee deep in the application process and the number is up to 11.

4 in-state publics (19K-27K)
1 out-of-state public (47K)
6 privates (55K-67K)

These are full price costs and we'll wait and see where the merit money comes in at. From what I'm hearing, she can expect $4-6K at publics and up to $22K of merit at some of the privates. That's going to leave us a bit short, but we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully, there's a full-tuition scholarship in there somewhere. Fingers crossed.

Hope this helps explain a little better why the guilt and regret.

 

[pb4uski]

I think your DD needs to think more practically about what comes after college before deciding where to go. As they say in 7 Habits of Highly Effective People... begin with the end in mind. My first thought when a high school senior was a profession that certainly would have been interesting but after researching jobs and salaries I concluded would not allow me to live as I wanted... so I ended up choosing a more practical profession and of course, the colleges that I planned to attend changed as a result. Dear SIL scrimped to put our niece through 4 years of college with a degree in drama... she now works in retail that is a small upgrade from her prior job painting houses. A friend got a degree in art and works for the state in a clerical job. In both cases, pretty much a waste of money.

If your DD is artistic, there are practical professions for those who are so minded... BFF's daughter is an interior designer and has a great job and makes good money.... another niece works in architectural design and seems to enjoy her job and makes good money. I also understand that the artsy side of video game design is a hot profession.

On tuition... DD was offered a "scholarship"... which was nothing more than an annual discount on tuition because the school wanted her. I don't recall exactly but it was pretty significant.. about 20% off the first year and less after that as the scholarship amount was fixed but tuition increased annually... but still better than paying full sticker price.

I budgeted $100k ($25k a year) for DS... but he has yet to take advantage of it... I hope that someday soon he does.

 

[tulak]

I originally thought we would apply to 5 colleges max, but we're knee deep in the application process and the number is up to 11.

Yikes. I had the opposite problem with DS. I think he should consider more schools, but he's pretty much made up his mind. Total of 3 schools, 2 in-state public (23k/26k) and 1 Canadian (36k USD - at current exchange rate).

We're different than many on this board, because we've paid for private school for both of our kids. We never sent them to expensive private schools, but mid-priced private schools. Right now they both attend a Catholic high school. We didn't do this to eventually send them to an Ivy league school, but to make sure that they are well prepared for college and life afterwards. I feel fortunate that we had this option (many don't) and don't regret any of the money we spent. So far so good.

I mention this because we have spent a lot of money on our kid's education, but we don't have a strong belief that this means they need to go to an expensive university when the in-state option is just as good. DS completely gets it (and he's a 3.8 student taking mostly AP/honor classes).

One of his options - his sure thing - is a 2nd tier in-state university where he'll know a lot of people. The average GPA for admission is around 3.5 with about 15k students. He would be more than happy to go there. As a side note, this school has *much* smaller class sizes compared to his other choices and classes are taught by Professors, not grad students (the undergrad population is 98% of the school, so not many grad students to choose from). Not at all a bad option. If you're worried that your DD would like a smaller environment, maybe there are universities in your state that match this profile?

As for the major, we've also been clear with our kids that they need to select a major that will lead to employment. If they want to study art/music, then they can select it as a minor or do a double-major - unless they have a plan they can sell us (teaching degree, etc). DW has many co-workers that went back to school to get their nursing degree after graduating with a less-employable major. It's great that kids want to explore their interests, but they should realize that's a secondary goal. The primary goal is to learn something useful in order to be successful in life. Of course, IMO.

 

[bmcgonig]

My niece pressed really hard to study art as it was her passion. Her parents relented. She got a fantastic Masters degree in Europe that even included a year in the Sorbonne.

At the end of it she couldn't find a job in art and is now working for a tech company in marketing. She literally looked at her parents and said "why did you let me study art?"


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[427Vette]

I know this can be a confrontational topic so I reluctantly write it. It seems everyone thinks that their little snowflake needs the best education from the best high dollar university with the best professors money can buy. I don't know any statistics but from what I see of the college graduates that I know is that most of them get a degree of some specialty type then just take whatever job that comes their way. Most of these jobs are something that wouldn't require a college education anyway. As a society we have all gravitated towards the misconception that there is no possible way to be successful unless you obtain a degree. The truth is that we all cant be engineers, doctors and lawyers and such. Someone has to do the other jobs too.

I would sit down and discuss your daughters life plans first before deciding on a college. First I would discuss if she has thought about getting married and having kids. It wouldn't make much sense, but I have seen it happen many times where the girl gets a big, expensive college education then immediately gets married then has a number of kids just to find out it is to difficult to work while raising kids and decides to put her job search/employment on hold and work evenings as a store clerk or something. Usually this last until the kids are in their later years in HS. By this time the big expensive degree is outdated and she ends up taking any job she can find or going full time as the store clerk. Secondly I would find out where she wants to live. There isn't much point to getting an art degree then living in a small midwest country town or a marine biology degree and living in Tucson.

I honestly don't even know what a degree in art would do for her. Would it allow her to teach art? Or would it allow her to appraise art, work in an art store, draw pictures, paint pictures I really don't know. Maybe if she really likes art she should get whatever job she can in the art industry to see if that's what she really wants to do first.

perhaps you could put together some numbers and show her how much the education will cost you/her. Include everything that pertains such as the tuition, books, housing, food and whatever other expense there may be. If she decides on the 60k a year school that number could easily approach $350,000. At that point you two can put the earnings numbers to it and see how long she will have to work to get a ROI. Or maybe you could take a fraction of that money and buy or start up an art store where she could sell nice pictures or something.

 

[Philliefan33]

I would sit down and discuss your daughters life plans first before deciding on a college. First I would discuss if she has thought about getting married and having kids. It wouldn't make much sense, but I have seen it happen many times where the girl gets a big, expensive college education then immediately gets married then has a number of kids just to find out it is to difficult to work while raising kids and decides to put her job search/employment on hold and work evenings as a store clerk or something. Usually this last until the kids are in their later years in HS. By this time the big expensive degree is outdated and she ends up taking any job she can find or going full time as the store clerk. Secondly I would find out where she wants to live. There isn't much point to getting an art degree then living in a small midwest country town or a marine biology degree and living in Tucson.


.

Wow. The 1950's called; they want to know when you are coming home.

ALL young people, women and men, should try to envision how they want to spend their life before deciding on college / continued education. To imply that a girl is just going to end up getting married and staying home, so educating her is probably not a good investment, is insulting.

ALL young men and women deciding on college careers are only 17-18 years old. They might have an idea what they want to do, but a lot of them will change their minds in a year or two. Some will change their minds in ten years and go back to school to change careers. Some will change their mind in ten years or fifteen years, but not have the desire or means to make a change and will stick it out in a ill-fitting job just to pay the bills.

I believe that education is never wasted. Anytime I learn something, I am enriched--even if I never get a "return on investment" for the money or time it cost me to learn.

That said, it makes sense for parents to help students research the potential jobs and earnings for the course of study a student is considering. It makes sense to find the best program for the student at the best price--don't go into debt to pay for a degree if it can be done without debt. Minimize any necessary debt. But it doesn't make sense to push a student towards a degree/career they don't like, just for the potential of earning more money than in a career of the student's choosing.

 

[SecondCor521]

The FAFSA is definitely needed for any aid from most schools (some require another questionnaire too, can't recall the name of it). We received many notices wanting it in January, made difficult because we didn't have our numbers together until the end of the month or early February.

Good place to point out that the FAFSA deadline is changing, and that these changes impact people who have kids in high school now.

The starting date for submittals is being moved earlier - from January 1 to October 1. Also, the tax year that one uses to file the FAFSA is transitioning to one year earlier than it used to be:

https://financialaidtoolkit.ed.gov/resources/fafsa-changes-17-18-faq.pdf

 

[athena53]

Wow. The 1950's called; they want to know when you are coming home.

ALL young people, women and men, should try to envision how they want to spend their life before deciding on college / continued education. To imply that a girl is just going to end up getting married and staying home, so educating her is probably not a good investment, is insulting.

I definitely consider myself a feminist but I agree that the daughter's life goals should be a consideration in the choice of college. Let's look at it another way: if she wants to have the option of being a full-time mother, will an expensive education lock her into loans that make that impossible for her unless she marries someone with megabucks? My DS was adamant about marrying someone who shared his intention of having the wife stay home FT with children. My biggest fear was that he'd find Ms. Right and she'd have $80K in student loans. Instead, DDIL had gotten a 2-year business college degree and worked maintaining inventory a a car dealership till our granddaughter was born. Apparently she had some student loans but they were manageable. Contrast that with a coworker at a previous job whose wife had an MD degree, big student loans, and had decided she wanted to stay home with the kids.

Unless you have an infinite supply of money, comparing the cost of the education vs. potential income is important, both for males and females.

 

[pb4uski]

....I believe that education is never wasted. ...

Agreed... never a total waste but sometimes pretty close... loads of examples of people with degrees in art, drama, literature, etc. who have been unable to find jobs and careers that made their education worthwhile. Like I said before, begin with the end in mind... what you do in your 20s may well not be your ultimate life's calling but it is foolish to be careless in choosing what to study and ending up with loans (or your parents having spent a lot of money) and getting a bad start in life on your own.

 

[athena53]

As for the major, we've also been clear with our kids that they need to select a major that will lead to employment. If they want to study art/music, then they can select it as a minor or do a double-major - unless they have a plan they can sell us (teaching degree, etc).

I agree with this. In my career as an actuary, I met quite a few people who double-majored in Math and something else- music, theology, even linguistics. The linguistics major specialized in the language of the natives of Greenland. Real marketable, huh? She's a very high-powered woman with a thriving consulting practice- as an actuary. When my professional society celebrated its 100-year anniversary, they had a big, splashy celebration and the music was by an orchestra and chorus made up of members. Here's the result. Pretty good turnout for a bunch of insurance geeks.