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Old 05-19-2010, 12:55 PM   #41
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I find it a little hard to understand also. Renounce citizenship is not the same as denounce America. Even if it were, who thinks that America is his family? Yecch!
Exactly! IMO whether someone chooses to no longer be a US citizen - that is their choice and non of my business. It is not denouncing the US or showing any lack of respect toward the US.

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People would be happier if they saved their passion for the bedroom, and realized that much else is just business.

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That is wonderful advice!

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Old 05-19-2010, 02:42 PM   #42
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I find it a little hard to understand also. Renounce citizenship is not the same as denounce America. Even if it were, who thinks that America is his family? Yecch!

People would be happier if they saved their passion for the bedroom, and realized that much else is just business.

Ha
Very well said.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:34 PM   #43
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If you renounce your US citizenship and then find yourself being caned in Singapore for dancing on a Sunday or whatever other ridiculous laws some countries have, dont come crying to the US to help you.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:02 PM   #44
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If you renounce your US citizenship and then find yourself being caned in Singapore for dancing on a Sunday or whatever other ridiculous laws some countries have, dont come crying to the US to help you.
And why do you think someone would?

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Old 05-19-2010, 04:12 PM   #45
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This thread is about people who renounce their US citizenship to avoid paying taxes because they have decided to live abroad. Most countries do not tax their citizens if they live abroad and are not therefore a burden on the state.

At the start of the thread I was thinking that US tax law is very draconian in this respect, but as the thread progressed I think I am changing my view particularly since reading about one of the stories in the recent elections in the UK where, not only do many rich folks avoid a lot of taxes by "living abroad", they are still voting, and even making laws.

The $ billionaire, Lord Ashcroft is a prime example. He is deputy chairman of the Tory party, sits in the House of Lords, debates and votes on government bills, and has been considered "non domicile" for tax purposes for many years.

Lord Ashcroft reveals: I am a non-dom | Politics | guardian.co.uk

Apparently there are other British "non-doms" who quite legally serve in parliament.

So, I am now thinking the USA is right to tax its citizens wherever they live.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:21 PM   #46
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This thread is about people who renounce their US citizenship to avoid paying taxes because they have decided to live abroad. Most countries do not tax their citizens if they live abroad and are not therefore a burden on the state.

At the start of the thread I was thinking that US tax law is very draconian in this respect, but as the thread progressed I think I am changing my view particularly since reading about one of the stories in the recent elections in the UK where, not only do many rich folks avoid a lot of taxes by "living abroad", they are still voting, and even making laws.

The $ billionaire, Lord Ashcroft is a prime example. He is deputy chairman of the Tory party, sits in the House of Lords, debates and votes on government bills, and has been considered "non domicile" for tax purposes for many years.

Lord Ashcroft reveals: I am a non-dom | Politics | guardian.co.uk

Apparently there are other British "non-doms" who quite legally serve in parliament.

So, I am now thinking the USA is right to tax its citizens wherever they live.

I think there is a difference in what the UK does and what the US does...

IIANM (is this a real one if I am not mistaken...)... the UK taxes income earned in the UK... so even if you are a non dom you should pay taxes on your UK income... If you are a non dom, how much of the basic services do you use You are not riding on the trains, using the tube, being serviced by the local trash collectors, receiving medical treatment... now, you are using the Foreign Office (or whatever the correct one is) if you get into trouble in another country...

In the US... you are taxed on your worldwide income... but do get a break if you have earned income overseas... but that is if you are there long enough... so if you have an interest bearing account in Switzerland, you pay taxes on that income in the US... even if you live in Switzerland (or the UK, or Japan etc.)... why

I am not using the majority of the services that taxes support... I am using the military and the State Department... but not much else..

PS... I am excluding SS as that is supposed to have been paid with work in the US... so it is not paid by general taxes...
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:38 PM   #47
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I think there is a difference in what the UK does and what the US does...

IIANM (is this a real one if I am not mistaken...)... the UK taxes income earned in the UK... so even if you are a non dom you should pay taxes on your UK income... If you are a non dom, how much of the basic services do you use You are not riding on the trains, using the tube, being serviced by the local trash collectors, receiving medical treatment... now, you are using the Foreign Office (or whatever the correct one is) if you get into trouble in another country...

In the US... you are taxed on your worldwide income... but do get a break if you have earned income overseas... but that is if you are there long enough... so if you have an interest bearing account in Switzerland, you pay taxes on that income in the US... even if you live in Switzerland (or the UK, or Japan etc.)... why

I am not using the majority of the services that taxes support... I am using the military and the State Department... but not much else..

PS... I am excluding SS as that is supposed to have been paid with work in the US... so it is not paid by general taxes...
IBYAC (I Believe You Are Correct), which is why pop stars and other mega rich folks can move abroad and move their fortunes to foreign banks to avoid UK taxes.

For the first few years of working in the USA part of my salary was paid out of the UK but because I was living in the USA I did not pay any UK income tax on that money - I paid US tax on my UK earnings. Today I still get income from the UK from pensions from a UK company and interest from a bank account. Again, I don't pay UK income tax on that as I pay US tax even though that income comes from UK businesses. I'm not sure what the situation would be if I earned money from a job in the UK while being a resident here. e.g. I could easily be a telecommuter manning an IT help desk, or a journalist writing columns for a UK newspaper.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
This thread is about people who renounce their US citizenship to avoid paying taxes because they have decided to live abroad. Most countries do not tax their citizens if they live abroad and are not therefore a burden on the state.

At the start of the thread I was thinking that US tax law is very draconian in this respect, but as the thread progressed I think I am changing my view particularly since reading about one of the stories in the recent elections in the UK where, not only do many rich folks avoid a lot of taxes by "living abroad", they are still voting, and even making laws.

The $ billionaire, Lord Ashcroft is a prime example. He is deputy chairman of the Tory party, sits in the House of Lords, debates and votes on government bills, and has been considered "non domicile" for tax purposes for many years.

Lord Ashcroft reveals: I am a non-dom | Politics | guardian.co.uk

Apparently there are other British "non-doms" who quite legally serve in parliament.

So, I am now thinking the USA is right to tax its citizens wherever they live.
After spending 25 years working abroad and paying taxes to two countries I do not have any issue with being taxed on worldwide income as long as one is creditable to the other (no net dual taxation). My view is tax it all or tax none of it, anything in-between is a form of tax relief or loophole for an influential constituent. Not taxing non-domestic income is a giant loophole that favors the few and invites evasion.

This applies to business as well.

Lord Ashcroft is an example of how political parties subjugate ideology and core values for financial support. Similar examples in US politics are too numerous to list.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:22 PM   #49
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IBYAC (I Believe You Are Correct), which is why pop stars and other mega rich folks can move abroad and move their fortunes to foreign banks to avoid UK taxes.

For the first few years of working in the USA part of my salary was paid out of the UK but because I was living in the USA I did not pay any UK income tax on that money - I paid US tax on my UK earnings. Today I still get income from the UK from pensions from a UK company and interest from a bank account. Again, I don't pay UK income tax on that as I pay US tax even though that income comes from UK businesses. I'm not sure what the situation would be if I earned money from a job in the UK while being a resident here. e.g. I could easily be a telecommuter manning an IT help desk, or a journalist writing columns for a UK newspaper.
Not sure.... but why would your UK earning not be taxed in the UK

But... again... reaching back in my memory... I don't think the UK taxes cap gains and possibly some other items... maybe this is what you are receiving.


I have not looked into this... but I do believe that if you are not a citizen you do not have to pay taxes on your income earned elsewhere... now, there might be something in there that says you can not bring it into the US... I did taxes for 4 years a LONG time ago... and I never did a tax return on someone with a green card that did not get all their income from the US... so no experience here...
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:39 PM   #50
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Not sure.... but why would your UK earning not be taxed in the UK

But... again... reaching back in my memory... I don't think the UK taxes cap gains and possibly some other items... maybe this is what you are receiving.


I have not looked into this... but I do believe that if you are not a citizen you do not have to pay taxes on your income earned elsewhere... now, there might be something in there that says you can not bring it into the US... I did taxes for 4 years a LONG time ago... and I never did a tax return on someone with a green card that did not get all their income from the US... so no experience here...
I can correct you on that one. We are resident aliens in the US and we pay tax on our worldwide income to the IRS. It's why some choose to stay on green cards rather than do citizenship, when they are done they return the green card and sever ties with the US.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:44 PM   #51
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o.uk

Apparently there are other British "non-doms" who quite legally serve in parliament.

So, I am now thinking the USA is right to tax its citizens wherever they live.
I see it more that the UK needs to cut off some of the abuses. This is likely just the usual special deal for the wealthy and or aristocrats.

Ha
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:02 PM   #52
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Lord Ashcroft is an example of how political parties subjugate ideology and core values for financial support. Similar examples in US politics are too numerous to list.
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Originally Posted by haha View Post
I see it more that the UK needs to cut off some of the abuses. This is likely just the usual special deal for the wealthy and or aristocrats.

Ha

I absolutely agree with you guys.


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Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Not sure.... but why would your UK earning not be taxed in the UK

But... again... reaching back in my memory... I don't think the UK taxes cap gains and possibly some other items... maybe this is what you are receiving.


I have not looked into this... but I do believe that if you are not a citizen you do not have to pay taxes on your income earned elsewhere... now, there might be something in there that says you can not bring it into the US... I did taxes for 4 years a LONG time ago... and I never did a tax return on someone with a green card that did not get all their income from the US... so no experience here...
It is to do with the tax treaty between the 2 countries that I am not taxed on my UK income but pay the (lower) US taxes.

What I had to do was apply to the IRS for a certificate (Form 6166) which shows that I am a US taxpayer (cost me $35) and then complete the UK Inland Revenue form to stop the UK taxes being withheld.

I get paid once a month and the interest payments are also every month so I record the payments and the exchange rate on the day and calculate the $ income which is then reported on my US tax return.


Quote:
1. Purpose of form US/Individual 2002
Quote:

Form US/Individual 2002 enables you as a resident of the United States to apply under the United Kingdom/

United States Double Taxation Convention (
SI 2002 Number 2848 which, for taxes withheld at source, has effect from
I May 2003),

for relief at source from UK income tax on UK-source pensions, (including personal pensions and the

state retirement pension), incapacity benefit, purchased annuities, royalties

and interest. You may use the form to

claim relief in respect of any other income qualifying under Article 22 of the Convention – the ‘Other Income’ article. It also
provides for a claim to repayment of UK income tax in cases where payments of the income have been made with UK tax
deducted.

2. Evidence of residence in the United States and where to send the completed form

It is a condition of relief from UK income tax under the terms of the United States/United Kingdom Double Taxation
Convention that the beneficial owner of the income is resident in the United States. Your completed form US/Individual
will therefore need certification by the US Internal Revenue Service as evidence that you are resident in the United States.
Please send the completed form to the

Internal Revenue Service, US Residency Certification Unit,
PO Box 16347, Philadelphia, PA 19114-0447
.




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Old 05-19-2010, 07:52 PM   #53
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Hadn't seen this article- but I think we would all be better off if Rush Limbaugh was on a plane out of here tomorrow. Heck, I'd buy his ticket. (one way, in steerage)
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:11 PM   #54
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Hey, what's all this talk about the hypothetical "traitor" Francophile? And why it is more acceptable to emigrate between English speaking countries?

You are not talking about me, I am sure. I have no reasons to renounce my American citizenship. I pay all my taxes, do no crime, and committed very few misdemeanors, like speeding and parking violations. Is it OK for me to like French music, French cognac, and French movies, and French fries? (The French fries might have originated from Belgium, but it's a minor distinction as the Belgian and French are like brothers).

And talk about Francophiles, I have read that Jefferson was one. And Ben Franklin served as ambassador there for a few years, and had good rapport with them. In fact, the ladies of the French court were rather fond of Ben.

PS. And as I posted here a while back, though I have forgotten most of my French I learned it first before English, at the age of 6 versus about 12, and neither was my mother tongue.
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:36 AM   #55
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The French fries might have originated from Belgium, but it's a minor distinction as the Belgian and French are like brothers.
I've spent a lot of time in Belgium, and the Flemish half of Belgium are not too enthusiastic about the French. In fact the town we stayed in most often, Leuven, has restaurants where the menus are in Flemish only (no English or French translations).

But the food and beer is great regardless of what language it is served in
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:23 PM   #56
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OK. The Flemish are more like BIL to the French. :-) We have not been to Leuven, only to Bruxelles, Bruges, and Ostend, the last because of a mention of its name in the song "Il pleut sur Bruxelles" sung by Dalida as a homage to Jacques Brel. Being a romantic, when I like a song, I want to visit the places mentioned in it.

Another trip that I recall fondly. Oh, the beers, and "moules et frites".
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:18 PM   #57
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OK. Here's the aforementioned song, with the French lyrics. I won't bother to translate, as much of the lyrics were taken from popular songs written and sung by Jacques Brel, and it would not mean much if you do not know these.

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Old 05-20-2010, 05:33 PM   #58
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Nice song - thanks.

Our company HQ for the business within Megacorp that I worked for is in Everberg and Leuven was a much easier drive than Brussels, and it is a beautiful cathederal city if you ever get a chance to visit.

We had a week in Bruges once during which we were broken into 6 groups working on different aspects of a big IT project and one thing that was very obvious is that many of my Belgian, non-flemish, collegues hold something against the Dutch because every few minutes someone would come in and give us an update on the Holland v Italy soccer game. It was pointed out that they support any team that is playing against Holland.
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:06 PM   #59
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Nice song - thanks.

Our company HQ for the business within Megacorp that I worked for is in Everberg and Leuven was a much easier drive than Brussels, and it is a beautiful cathederal city if you ever get a chance to visit.

We had a week in Bruges once during which we were broken into 6 groups working on different aspects of a big IT project and one thing that was very obvious is that many of my Belgian, non-flemish, collegues hold something against the Dutch because every few minutes someone would come in and give us an update on the Holland v Italy soccer game. It was pointed out that they support any team that is playing against Holland.
In the late 90's I used to travel to Bruges every 6-8 weeks on business. It is a great little town, one of my favorite destinations in Europe. How it survived WWII unscathed is one of life's mysteries. We also had a small manufacturing plant in Holland, I used to travel between locations, so I understand what you mean about the Belgian-Dutch rivalry (which, oddly, was mostly one-sided...)
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Old 05-21-2010, 02:31 AM   #60
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Sigh~~~There are so many Chinese dreaming to become American Citizen, while some
Americans want to give up their rights! Is America like a Fort Noxis, the persons inside want to get out and the outside ones want to get in?

In my opinion, travelling around is great. But you don't need to give up the citizenship.
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