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Old 05-21-2010, 10:00 AM   #61
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Sigh~~~There are so many Chinese dreaming to become American Citizen, while some
Americans want to give up their rights! Is America like a Fort Noxis, the persons inside want to get out and the outside ones want to get in?

In my opinion, travelling around is great. But you don't need to give up the citizenship.
Hi Lily, Welcome to the ER.org community.

The amount of folks giving up US citizenship to avoid paying US taxes is only a few hundred per year, a mere drop in the bucket.

The vast majority, including those of us who worked hard at becoming US citizens, would never dream of giving it up just to save money.
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Old 05-21-2010, 01:12 PM   #62
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There are a few cases where it can make sense. Consider an American couple living in Switzerland, with long term positions in Geneva. They have a child (three, actually) who are US citizens by birthright. The parents obtain US passports for the children, who travel to the US every year or two to visit relatives. The children grow up in Switzerland, attending Swiss schools.

At passport renewal time (5 years), the children have to obtain US social security numbers per Section 6039E of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. 6039E) for their passports. The U.S. Department of State provides the SSN and foreign residence information to the Department of Treasury, for tax collection purposes. Eventually, the children grow up, and take jobs in Geneva.

While they may not be aware of this, they now owe taxes to the US Treasury Department, in spite of having been in the US perhaps 2 months out of their entire life, and being effectively Swiss nationals paying Swiss taxes for their Swiss employment. Failure to file and pay to the US Treasury leaves them susceptible to arrest should they ever be on a flight that touches a US port.

This is a case where the risks and complexity may outweigh any benefits for the individuals, who consider themselves to be Swiss. Giving up US citizenship removes complexity, removes the risk of accidental violation of laws and regulations of a country they are unfamiliar with, and avoids some emotional distress when they start getting strange mail from the IRS, and get called in by their Swiss bank to sign a US IRS W-9 form.
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:09 PM   #63
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There are a few cases where it can make sense. Consider an American couple living in Switzerland, with long term positions in Geneva. They have a child (three, actually) who are US citizens by birthright. The parents obtain US passports for the children, who travel to the US every year or two to visit relatives. The children grow up in Switzerland, attending Swiss schools.

At passport renewal time (5 years), the children have to obtain US social security numbers per Section 6039E of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. 6039E) for their passports. The U.S. Department of State provides the SSN and foreign residence information to the Department of Treasury, for tax collection purposes. Eventually, the children grow up, and take jobs in Geneva.

While they may not be aware of this, they now owe taxes to the US Treasury Department, in spite of having been in the US perhaps 2 months out of their entire life, and being effectively Swiss nationals paying Swiss taxes for their Swiss employment. Failure to file and pay to the US Treasury leaves them susceptible to arrest should they ever be on a flight that touches a US port.

This is a case where the risks and complexity may outweigh any benefits for the individuals, who consider themselves to be Swiss. Giving up US citizenship removes complexity, removes the risk of accidental violation of laws and regulations of a country they are unfamiliar with, and avoids some emotional distress when they start getting strange mail from the IRS, and get called in by their Swiss bank to sign a US IRS W-9 form.
I think this definitely is a case where one would want to give up US citizenship.
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Old 05-21-2010, 07:31 PM   #64
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Old 05-22-2010, 01:39 PM   #65
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This is an interesting thread. 64 posts on a topic that would be very unlikely to ever affect any of us.

Ha
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Old 05-22-2010, 03:21 PM   #66
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This is an interesting thread. 64 posts on a topic that would be very unlikely to ever affect any of us.

Ha
Not much else going on right now...
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Old 05-22-2010, 03:22 PM   #67
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:27 AM   #68
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I find it a little hard to understand also. Renounce citizenship is not the same as denounce America. Even if it were, who thinks that America is his family? Yecch!

People would be happier if they saved their passion for the bedroom, and realized that much else is just business.

Ha
Agree. US not the only great country to live in. Many posters imply it is.
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:28 PM   #69
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This thread has nothing to do with which countries are great to live in.
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:54 PM   #70
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This thread has nothing to do with which countries are great to live in.

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Old 06-04-2010, 02:26 PM   #71
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Loyalty to one's country (the USA) can be either good -- or bad.

If you detach yourself from the flag, apple pie, and other non-legal grounds, the fact remains that for SOME PEOPLE it makes sense to renounce your citizenship. John Templeton (is he still alive) of the same named fund family did this decades ago for (I think) tax purposes. If you are high-wealth, it might make sense to be someone else's citizen.

In favor of being a US citizen: on the other hand, there are lots of wealthy people living here who seem to like it fine. As greedy and far-reaching as the U.S. system is, most of the rest of the world is much worse in most standards, and the few places that are "better" (friendlier to the super-rich) are quite choosy about granting citizenship: Switzerland comes to mind. If you're rich, you can live there, but get citizenship? Good luck!

In contrast, the attraction of the USA to immigrants is a mixed blessing, probably bordering on a "curse." IN MY OPINION, most of the people who enter the USA with intent to stay (note I didn't say "stay legally") are a net drain on our country. I know, "they take the jobs no one else wants," etc. Bullshit. I say kick out all the illegals, pay U.S. citizens whatever wage is needed to do a job, and let's reduce the problems poverty creates for us. We already have enough "citizens" who have no marketable skills, breed kids like rabbits, and without whom the country would be better off without if they'd never existed.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:11 PM   #72
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So here's a hypothetical question:

If it were legal to sell your citizenship, what would you charge? And don't say there is not enough money to get you to do that because I'm quite certain that if teh going rate were, say, $25 million, most US citizens would gladly sell, and there are plenty of foreigners who would buy. I'm not talking about something illegal here where you'd have to look over your shoulder forever. How much would you charge if you could legally sell your citizenship to someone and then live in some tropical locale for the rest of your life spending the money you received? You can still visit the US freely like any foreigner

Very tough question for me but I'd say it is somewhere around $10 million.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:18 PM   #73
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I think I'd only sell my citizen as a last resort. That is, if I couldn't survive without doing that. I suppose, that is why folks flee their home country. Not for money, but from necessity.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:18 PM   #74
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I can not think of an amount I would sell my U.S. citizenship for. Sorry, but I went through some really big numbers, 1 billion even. Of course, you have to realize it would mean giving up Texas, and that just ain't going to happen!

DW and I have the home of our dreams, money enough to do what ever we want, as we don't want much, and this country means that much to me.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:25 PM   #75
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Not for sale. Neither are my heart or my liver any time soon.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:37 PM   #76
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And don't say there is not enough money to get you to do that
Watch my lips very carefully - There....is....not....enough....money.
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...because I'm quite certain that if teh going rate were, say, $25 million, most US citizens would gladly sell,
Maybe many would, but I'm not sure about most. There are plenty of people who would sell you their kids for less than that, or literally their ass for a whole lot less than that. Doesn't mean I would.

There are things more important than money in this world. There are things that money can't buy, or that money can't protect you against.

My first American ancestor got his start in this country almost four centuries ago, and he was followed by many other immigrants who became my ancestors for a couple of centuries after that. All came here to escape the oppression of some king, pope, or bandit. America paid off on its promise to them and I have who knows how many relatives living in this country today who are all the beneficiaries of that transaction.

My family paid the price in fighting every war this county has ever been in, including several wars before the Revolution. They worked hard to create something for themselves, their children, and ultimately for me. That's not something I would sell for money.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:39 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by pedorrero View Post
Loyalty to one's country (the USA) can be either good -- or bad.

If you detach yourself from the flag, apple pie, and other non-legal grounds, the fact remains that for SOME PEOPLE it makes sense to renounce your citizenship. John Templeton (is he still alive) of the same named fund family did this decades ago for (I think) tax purposes. If you are high-wealth, it might make sense to be someone else's citizen.


In contrast, the attraction of the USA to immigrants is a mixed blessing, probably bordering on a "curse." IN MY OPINION, most of the people who enter the USA with intent to stay (note I didn't say "stay legally") are a net drain on our country. I know, "they take the jobs no one else wants," etc. Bullshit. I say kick out all the illegals, pay U.S. citizens whatever wage is needed to do a job, and let's reduce the problems poverty creates for us. We already have enough "citizens" who have no marketable skills, breed kids like rabbits, and without whom the country would be better off without if they'd never existed.
Oh boy are you gonna be in trouble! On two counts!

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Old 06-06-2010, 11:45 PM   #78
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I can not think of an amount I would sell my U.S. citizenship for. Sorry, but I went through some really big numbers, 1 billion even. Of course, you have to realize it would mean giving up Texas, and that just ain't going to happen!

DW and I have the home of our dreams, money enough to do what ever we want, as we don't want much, and this country means that much to me.
What if Texas became it's own country again

Which way would you go....
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Old 06-06-2010, 11:52 PM   #79
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Hey Doing...


This is like the question to a lady 'would you have sex for $1 million'... and then she says 'yes'...

You ask 'for $1,000'... she says 'what do you think I am'... you say back 'we have established that... we are now negotiation on a price'....

I do not negotiate with something that I am not willing to give up...

As an example... how much would you need to 'steal' if you could... I can tell you that I could have stole a few $100K from my work and they would never have known (in fact, once they sent me a check for $100K that I took to my boss who was shocked... not trace on the money as it was 'lost' in the system).... and I bet I could have stole millions... never did.. .never will...
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Old 06-07-2010, 10:44 AM   #80
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So here's a hypothetical question:

If it were legal to sell your citizenship, what would you charge? And don't say there is not enough money to get you to do that because I'm quite certain that if teh going rate were, say, $25 million, most US citizens would gladly sell, and there are plenty of foreigners who would buy. I'm not talking about something illegal here where you'd have to look over your shoulder forever. How much would you charge if you could legally sell your citizenship to someone and then live in some tropical locale for the rest of your life spending the money you received? You can still visit the US freely like any foreigner

Very tough question for me but I'd say it is somewhere around $10 million.
My ancestors worked too hard to emigrate here a few hundred years ago- one of them hiding in a pickle barrel on a ship becuse he didn't have money for passage and wanted to avoid indentured servitude. Many have died fighting to make and keep this country free. I realize how lucky I am to be a citizen of the US, and am grateful for the opportunities that I have been given. MY US citizenship isn't for sale, at any price

So, take your hypothetical question one step further- how much would you take to renounce your US citizenship, without knowing where you would be re-assigned to live? It might be the Congo, North Korea, Haiti, any of a number of fundamentalist Islamic countries, or maybe Finland, Luxembourg or Monaco. Your destination will be drawn from a hat. Suddenly the money isn't quite as attractive...
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