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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-19-2005, 11:41 AM   #21
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Re: He Went to Paris

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Originally Posted by poyet
Sailaway, if I may and with all respect, Champs Elysées have not changed but Paris at large including the banlieues are changing everyday with more people flooding from many poor countries hoping to have a better future here and getting dispaired in the end !
Could you elaborate a bit about the feeling you have or opinion you voice to feel lucky (which you propbably are) to be in the US ?
Patrice
Patrice,

I am interested in your observation that the large immigration and high birth rates of people who are of different ethnicity, religion, culture and political heritage from the home population of France are changing the nature of French life, most clearly and immediately in the banlieues. From your tone, I surmise that you do not consider this an unalloyed blessing.

I have expressed on this board similar misgivings about current immigration policies in the USA. This expression has met with quite a bit of disagreement, and even some name-calling.

I believe Europe, in particular France, Germany, Netherlands and to some extent the UK are farther along this road than the US, in spite of currently having smaller populations of lower class and ethnically concentrated immigrant groups than the USA. I believe however that the road goes to the same place -Balkanization of a formerly relatively cohesive society.

Would you be willing to share more of your observations and ideas on the situation in France, and what changes in French life you feel may come as a result of these perhaps unstoppable demographic trends?

It must be difficult for France, which afterall inherited from fallen Rome the mantle of western civilization, and has nationhood over 1000 years old, to find itself under this kind of challenge.

Thanks-

Ha
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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-19-2005, 12:19 PM   #22
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Re: He Went to Paris

Ha,
I'll make a private reply to you.
Patrice
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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-20-2005, 12:05 PM   #23
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Re: He Went to Paris

The Nov 12 edition of The Economist points out how France created the situation by excluding "immigrants" (i.e., minorities regardless of French birth) culturally and economically from French society. A primary cause is insane labour policies that shelter "insider" workers and exclude and marginalize "outsiders" from the labour market. High minimum-wage laws encourage discrimination, of course. "Immigrants" have been living with this for 30 years.

This situation is a test-tube case of how to do everything wrong. I love train wrecks, but this particular situation will harm all of Europe and potentially the New World as well.

Speaking of train wrecks, I think I will leave Venezuela off my list of places to visit for a while.

El Gitano
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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-20-2005, 12:39 PM   #24
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Re: He Went to Paris

Stop reading the Economist and spend some time with us to see the thruth which is that nobody who has some knowledge and competencies to do something useful has never ever been excluded from the work market whatever his / her origins. Those who burn the schools that were freely available for their instruction, burn the very symbol of their failure to work hard and learn something. It is often said that even those who obtained diplomas have no jobs. This is unfortunately somehow true for everybody whatever color or origins because the economy is structurally slow due to high level of taxes both on companies and individuals and other issues I will not develop.
Those who claim to have been excluded have simply excluded themselves. Interested in hiring someone whatever color, name origin or address whose main know-how is burning cars & schools ? That's a good CV for undertaking revolution not for getting a job.
It is not only unbearable to read such a claim that asserts that French society would have engineered or encouraged discrimination, it is merely plain wrong.

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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-20-2005, 01:05 PM   #25
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Re: He Went to Paris

I have to agree with Poyet, but for a different reason. The Economist is advocating the "screw the worker" globalization of labor markets that is the current fashion in the US. While college educated workers have prospered under this regime, it has very hard for the less educated or less skilled workers, who have seen their real wages plummet. Just look at unemployment among African Americans. Or go to a non-union job site, and listen to see if you hear any English being spoken, other than by the foreman.

Under the political and economic fashion of today in Anglo-Saxon countries, this is seen to be more of less the cost of doing business. Continental Europe OTOH has politically strong unions, and no desire to exchange a very satisfying and successful social order for some theory of open borders.

From my perch, seems like a fairly reasonable idea.

Anyhow, I am not a theorist, but I can see the train coming. The same train comes at us in the US, but we are just a bit behind on the timeline.

But hey guys, enjoy your cheap maids and pool-boys!

Ha

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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-20-2005, 02:01 PM   #26
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Re: He Went to Paris

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Those who burn the schools that were freely available for their instruction, burn the very symbol of their failure to work hard and learn something.
So true.

Quote:
Interested in hiring someone whatever color, name origin or address whose main know-how is burning cars & schools ? That's a good CV for undertaking revolution not for getting a job.
If memory serves, some who reached high positions in government once manned the barricades. Perhaps who daddy was is more important than youthful transgressions. It is the same everywhere.

Ed
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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-26-2005, 04:37 AM   #27
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Re: He Went to Paris

For having given this interview (in English):
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/646938.html

Finkielkraut had to present his excuses:
http://info.france3.fr/france/15983899-fr.php

otherwise he would have been prosecuted by MRAP.
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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-26-2005, 01:18 PM   #28
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Re: He Went to Paris

poyet,

I read your links. I see that freedom of speech in France is limited.

I still see the train wreck coming and I still think the French government is barking mad. "Civilizations fall when they stop responding appropriately to challenges."

Ed

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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-26-2005, 04:36 PM   #29
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Re: He Went to Paris

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Originally Posted by Ed_The_Gypsy
poyet,

I read your links.* I see that freedom of speech in France is limited.*

I still see the train wreck coming and I still think the French government is barking mad.* "Civilizations fall when they stop responding appropriately to challenges."*

Ed

Freedom of speech is limited here also, and it will only get worse.

JG
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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-26-2005, 10:55 PM   #30
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Re: He Went to Paris

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Freedom of speech is limited here also, and it will only get worse.
Entirely possible, JG. Fascism is fascism.

Fortunately, I am a chameleon. I will always be on the firing squad, not in front of it.

Sleazy Ed

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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-27-2005, 01:45 AM   #31
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Re: He Went to Paris

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Entirely possible, JG.* Fascism is fascism.*

Fortunately, I am a chameleon.* I will always be on the firing squad, not in front of it.
Definitely comforting.

Ha
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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 11-27-2005, 09:10 AM   #32
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Re: He Went to Paris

Ed,
My only worry, FIRE has always meant being a bit selfish anyway, is that so far I'm still a passager of this train promised to a marvelous wreckage.
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Re: He Went to Paris
Old 12-18-2005, 09:15 AM   #33
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Re: He Went to Paris

Anybody heard of this chap. He has a lot of ideas, some good, some bad. One of the best is he has a party at his flat in Paris every Sunday nite, first come first served. Wish I had known about this last month. He loves Paris, and is not too keen on work.

http://www.jim-haynes.com/
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