How do you deal with envy/hostility to ER?

[Hyperborea]

That, plus a strong culturally Puritanical code that measures personal value by <1> job title <2> net worth <3> volunteer contribution to society ... in that order.

I think <2> is wrong or at least needs modified. People aren't judged by their networth but by their apparent net worth. This apparent net worth is measured by how much they spend and how lavishly one lives.

[haha]

People aren't judged by their networth but by their apparent net worth. *This apparent net worth is measured by how much they spend and how lavishly one lives.

At least in small towns this is often not the case. I live in an agricultural area abutting a retirement area. The shopping is in the old ag town. Many of the people who have been around here for a while know that the newbies' BMWs are often leased, and that certain of the old fat guys in overalls could very possibly buy the bank. One of the richest women in the town was an 84 yo hairdresser who looked like she might never have changed clothes.

Mikey

Hi Mikey! I used to work with a guy who thought
that was cool, i.e. being worth a fortune and looking like
the town bum. I've known a few like that. Anyway, I
could put on a pretty impressive show if that's what
did it for me, and I probably would be dead before
the chickens came home to roost. Don't want to.
But..............if that is important to you, then go for it.

John Galt

[haha]

Anyway, I
could put on a pretty impressive show if that's what
did it for me, and I probably would be dead *before
the chickens came home to roost. *Don't want to.
But..............if that is important to you, then go for it.

John, I guess I am a bit confused by your post. What I was trying to say is that you can't judge a book by it's cover; you can't tell the depth of a well by the length of the handle on the pump; and in my town appearances don't reflect wealth.

That is the way I like it. I don't even own a suit anymore.

Mikey

[unclemick]

Mikey

Still have a couple suits - Weddings, Funerals and Jury Duty. Worked great for jury duty - I was never empaneled (Criminal court).

Hi Mikey. I did not mean "you" personally. I only meant
that if someone enjoys displaying their wealth
(real or imagined), it's okay with me. BTW, I don't
even own a suit and don't plan to ever again.

John Galt

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Pfft. I probably dont look too far from the town bum half the time. If I've been working on the house or in the yard and need to go shopping, I dont bother changing. The good news is the average joe around here isnt very dressed up, so even in holey shirt and pants spotted with dirt I'm sometimes the best dressed guy in the store

It is funny though how differently you're dealt with when you're dressed up even a little vs work-wear.

Of course these days nobody does customer service anymore to anyone, so I suppose it doesnt matter.

[BunsGettingFirm]

ESRBob, I feel bad for you that your old friends can't find the ability to be happy for you especially considering that you once shared a lot in common. It's one thing if they are your coworkers, but to have good friends back stab you like that is quite disheartening.

As for my co-workers, I don't even bother talking about anything besides last weekend's football game, the weather, and some other bland topic. I made the mistake of letting a few folks know that my goal is to ER by the time I'm 45-50, and I got a ton of crap. You would think that I'm taking half of their 401(k)s to fund my ER. LOL.

As I posted before, I never saw any real envy/hostility
(except maybe from my ex.). However, I did lose touch with a whole bunch of folks that I really liked and enjoyed. Once I was "out" and they were still "in"
we just drifted apart. I have a pretty full life, but still
miss all of those people who used to be a part of it.

John Galt

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I had the same thing happen. Work is a tie that binds and you have to develop something else to keep you connected with your work friends. I just sort of lost interest in all the shenanigans going on at the old farm.

I've found that ER is usually a topic I stay away from with family and friends. To tell people who hate their jobs and will be working at those jobs for the next 20 or 30 years that you will be ERing is like waving your hundred dollar bills at a bum on the street. Is serves no purpose.

I do happen to be in the line of work that allows me to show other people how to ER, which I try to do as much as I can. I am absolutely astonished at how unimpressed people are when you show them how they can retire at 40 instead of 65. There's usually that "oh, wow" for a brief moment and then they just keep living their lives as usual and will still retire at 65.

So I would say, keep ER to yourself. My life wouldn't change much to the outside world even if today I hit $1 million in the lottery, and nobody would know about it either. I keep my success to myself and will only discuss it with my wife and anonymously here since I am mostly preaching to the choir anyway. I am the millionaire next door who doesn't flaunt it. As such, I've found it easier to keep friends who don't equate me with money, don't expect me to pick up the tab every time we go out for dinner, and don't talk about how cheap I am behind my back. If you tell people you are wealthy and ER'd and you drive around in a 10 year old car and do all the things we ER people do because we are frugal they will label you as cheap. They will most certainly talk behind your back at how unsupportive you are when they ask you for a small loan (since you have so much money anyway) and you refuse to give it to them, or why you only donated $10 to their child's fundraiser instead of $100 (since you are so rich).

[azanon]

I agree with that last post save to spender. *Speaking for myself, most of the people I know, and am close to in my life (parents, friends, workmates, spouse) identify working and toiling as our very purpose in life, and there is this pervasive belief that we are to give freely to everyone and everything as responsible members of society.

That being said, most just arnt going to understand and/or "agree with" the ER mentality, so I agree, dont even try to fight that battle. *

AFAIK, i contribute to society/chartiable programs/etc every freggin' April the 15.

BTW, how DO you retire at 40? hehe. *Before i found this site, ER to me meant retiring late 50s, MAYBE early mid 50s if you bust your ass. *But you guys are freggin insane, 40s and even 30s in some cases here. *Just rough numbers, seems like that'd require in the neighborhood of 25% of gross or more saved - well beyond even the 15-20% talked about in "The Millionairre Next Door". *

Depending on your gross, saving 25% can be quite
easy, if you have the right mindset. I didn't. I also
agree that with the amount of taxes paid in over the years, I've done my bit for society. What I really resent
is what the government does with my money after
they get it away from me.

John Galt

[otako]

I agree with that last post save to spender. *Speaking for myself, most of the people I know, and am close to in my life (parents, friends, workmates, spouse) identify working and toiling as our very purpose in life, and there is this pervasive belief that we are to give freely to everyone and everything as responsible members of society.

That being said, most just arnt going to understand and/or "agree with" the ER mentality, so I agree, dont even try to fight that battle. *

AFAIK, i contribute to society/chartiable programs/etc every freggin' April the 15.

BTW, how DO you retire at 40? hehe. *Before i found this site, ER to me meant retiring late 50s, MAYBE early mid 50s if you bust your ass. *But you guys are freggin insane, 40s and even 30s in some cases here. *Just rough numbers, seems like that'd require in the neighborhood of 25% of gross or more saved - well beyond even the 15-20% talked about in "The Millionairre Next Door". *

It's possible if you have the right mind set. Not to metion if your open to moving overseas or to lower cost of living state. It only costs 1000 a month to live like a king in south east asia.

[Hyperborea]

Just rough numbers, seems like that'd require in the neighborhood of 25% of gross or more saved - well beyond even the 15-20% talked about in "The Millionairre Next Door". *

I'm at roughly 45% of gross and that doesn't include paydown of the mortgage, company stock options, or any potential for SS. It helps to make a lot and live simply.

[unclemick]

I seem to be suffering from a recent round of friend's and relatives 'needing loans(yeah right) and money' - since I have plenty of money. Envy was much better. Learning to become an 'asshole tightwad' as a defensive measure is hard.

[Pennhaven]

From an interview with Ric Edelman, author of Ordinary People, Extraordinary Wealth at http://myfidelity.members.fidelity.c...ctwo040709.dyn

_________________________________________________
Q. What's the best tip or lesson you've gleaned through the years from your wealthy clients?

Mr. Edelman: Wealth creation, more than anything else, is attitude. You are responsible for your financial future. It's not the responsibility or fault of the financial markets, you cannot complain that you don't make enough money or that your bills are too high, or that you didn't start earlier in life, or that you didn't become educated about money, or this or that or any other excuse.

Excuses are nothing but excuses. Your attitude determines your financial success in life. If you have a good attitude, you are more likely to be financially successful. If you don't have a good attitude, then you probably won't be.

That's what I've learned from my clients. They've lost money in investments, and they've made mistakes. But they didn't let these things prevent them from saving money or getting started saving and investing.
_________________________________________________

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Mick -

I fend most of that off proactively. When discussing my ER, I tell the friends and relatives that I have "a system" that kicks off enough for me to live off every year, but that cashing out the principal is nearly impossible without "dire consequences".

Which doesnt stop me from mysteriously producing a lump of cash if someone gets in a tight spot and really needs help.

[ShokWaveRider]

I have just returned from a visit to my "Outlaws". And I must say, the question that comes up at least 6 times from each family member, based on the fact we are taking 2 - 5 years travelling and not settling in a permanent home is:

A) If I am not around, question directed at my wife. "Are you sure it is wise Ian (Me) not ever working again?" You do need a house you know.

This annoys me, as I am still dealing with the fact that my wife was having a difficult time with not having a permanent "Nest". She is pretty comfortable now, but this does set us back a little.

B) If I am around. "Are you sure you do not want to get a job?" or "Are you comfortable NOT working?" I can deal with this one, although it does get old after a time. The Answer Simply is: "Yes, I am perfectly sure".

Like most >50 years of age ERs in this economy, with limited funds and no pension, we are careful not to use capital until interest rates increase.

Although, the assumption is with family that you are either broke or gazillionaires.

SWR

[Nords]

I've read several authors-- psychiatrists & financial planners for wealthy "patients"-- who claim that the best way to destroy a person is to give them a trust fund.

So I immediately contacted them to volunteer as a research subject. I think a reasonable challenge would be for them to study my ability to handle a trust fund throwing off $50 million/year. If they're on a tight budget then I guess $5M/yr would still provide valid data.

While I'm awaiting their response, we're trying to educate our progeny. We more or less have an "open book" policy on the home finances and that's had mixed results. The kid knows what's private family finances and what's OK to discuss with the other 7th graders, but long-term retirement budgeting is still a challenge. While the kid knows that a six-figure portfolio will buy a GREAT Disneyland vacation, there's still a little confusion on whether that same portfolio could survive six decades of ER. But surely there's enough room before then to raise everyone's allowances?!?

I mentioned the IRA contribution example the other day-- the one where Kid 1 starts an IRA at age 16, contributes the full amount for 10 years, and then stops. I compared it to Kid 2, who starts 20 years later and never stops. Of course Kid 1 wins on compounding and we were able to prove it with a little spreadsheet work. Unfortunately the story left the impression that hard work for 10 years will be rewarded with never having to contribute any more to your IRA. So we're coming back to that topic in a few months.

I sometimes wonder about the example we set and whether it produces unreasonable expectations. Spouse has almost joined me in retirement. Grandma & Grandpa retired 10 years ago, and my father 15. Brother-in-law and his spouse are retiring in about 10 years (early 50s). The kid is surrounded by retirees and hopefully will be interested in a career that facilitates ER. OTOH I'm beginning to believe that the biggest impact on ER is one's savings rate and disciplined DCA investing. This kid has been raised on Goodwill & garage sales, so we'll have to see how that turns out. Gotta choose your own path.

I have similar conversations with the neighborhood kids (our house is the hangout). It ranges from "Why are you growing a ponytail?" and "Why don't you have a job?!?" to "I'd HATE to have my parents around all day!". ("Because I finally can", "Because the Navy pays me some and we saved enough to be able to surf or read or work on the house", & "Me too.") Now that these kids are hitting middle school, they're starting to notice the lifestyle. There's no resentment-- only an attitude of "When can I join the club?" "How" isn't an issue. Even at the age of 12, though, you can tell that a couple of them will be working until they're 80 (or until they pay off their wardrobe & cell phone bills).

One adult neighbor gets ER only because he'll never do it. He owns his own carpet-cleaning business, sells Amway on the side, and has tremendous DIY skills. He can't believe that we'd choose a comfortable ER over a few more years of working to become feelthy steenking rich. Unfortunately I've noticed that two of his three adult children have moved back in with him... so maybe he can't plead the poverty excuse to their terminal affluenza. We get along fine despite being polar opposites on the subject of work, he appreciates my lack of jealousy when he shows off his latest toys, and we all know we're always free for travel or socializing.

One of his toys is a Lotus Triumph GT (which appears to retail for around $100K). It's a great-looking ride but I'd be terrified by the responsibility of ownership. He loves to drive it but ironically it hardly ever leaves the garage since his clients would decide that they've been paying too much for his services. He and his wife slide into it a couple times a year for big Amway events and otherwise he tinkers with it.

I'm not so sure about the other parents. The subject rarely gets around to ER... maybe it's "too far away" for the 40-something crowd? Maybe they're saving up for their own Triumphs?